Suspended Course Director

[leapfrog]

Remember no one has to sign every dive Well that should be changed. They should be siged with the other divers cert number and agency on it.and no agency polices the logbook. This should be changed too. In an earlier post I advocated a central electronic logbook system to be started by the majors. It is not the quantity that should be the issue, but the quality. I agree. So let's define quality and how we control it.

Each person's mind-set, desire and attention to learning and skills will dictate whether they will make a good instructor.I agree. Going into a class and saying oh this person can't be old enough to teach me anything is a defeatist attitude No, it is human nature. An instructor has to look and behave in a manner that wins his student's confidence. Also an instructor should bring life experience to the table to be able to relate to all kinds of students and divers and understand them. He has to be a psychologist to some extent.

If you want to promote diver safety and industry growth and environment safety, then you should advocate quality and not quantity. If you set a higher number, people will still hit the number, but they will forego quality to attain quantity.Agreed. So how do we define quality?

One thing I think PADI should consider is an exit interview. When they go to an IE (Instructor Exam), the candidate should have to have a conversation with a skilled diving instructor. The point should not be to trip up the candidate, but rather to get a handle on mind-set, general philosophy, offer up scenarios to learn from, etc. A rather simple 20-30 minute exit interview could do so much for people's mind-sets and attitudes before releasing them to the general public... The Course Director that brought the candidate should have a handle on all this already, but the dive agencies could really add value here Great idea. All for it. Where do we send it for approval?

 

[DandyDon]

Sir, Ben has given me the lowdown over PM. I can understand that he does not want to make public statements. However I do recommend that you PM with him to prevent this individual from continuing his scams by transfering to another certification agency as a Course Director, which seems to be his plan. We can only commend PADI for having removed him.

Nah, thanks. I am not interested in private gossip. If statements cannot be made in public, I don't need them. And I am sure that the agencies have a way of alert each other about bad guys to the extent they want to. I'm not going to try to get involved with their qualities controls.

Hi guys,

I was surprised by the amount of information our there, there are a ton of very well versed and highly knowledgable diver on this board, my kudos, and hope to one be just like you. There was a question that asked why I wanted to become an instructor, and the truth is from my first dive 2 years ago, I just knew this is what I wanted to do and pass along.

It took me two years to get everything in order for me to leave the "rat race", ok so a bit of a glitch with my first attempt, but hey Im still diving, making friends and realizing I was right about my dream. Know I will not make much cash, but do not need much.

Again Guys and Ladies, thanks so much for the information, kind words and guidance...safe diving

Sorry you didn't start discussing this with us long ago, but glad you're here now.

 

[ReefHound]

I am not picking on one person's quote on this, just a general view on my part that I have seen as a trend advocating upping the dive number requirement.

I'm the one that suggested raising the minimum number of dives and that's all it was, a suggestion for a way to ensure instructors have sufficient experience and education. Of course there are ways around it and of course there are flaws in it. I'm interested in the ends not the means. Maybe there are better ways to accomplish the task. Maybe there's no practical way and we must simply accept a percentage of bad instructors and let consumers do their homework.

I think your point on breadth of experience is important. It's not the age or years diving or number of dives. But as someone said an instructor has to instill confidence and command respect. There's a difference between being able to recite the textbook answers from memory and being able to relate them through practical personal experience.

 

[leapfrog]

Nah, thanks. I am not interested in private gossip. If statements cannot be made in public, I don't need them. And I am sure that the agencies have a way of alert each other about bad guys to the extent they want to. I'm not going to try to get involved with their qualities controls.

I hear you. Ben, I guess it's up to you if you want to go public on this.....

 

[scubapatton]

ReefHound. I agree. And my post, although in this string, was in no way intended to pick on one person's post. I have seen a number of people post the "up the limit" type of input and thought it was a good thing to address in this string since the OP was concerned about the CD that got suspended. I certainly do not have the answers across the board, but do think it is easier to set limits then to actually do something substantive (easier, not better, not worse). I also think that if someone is in the market to take classes/specialties/etc, it is important for them to do the research - get word of mouth, meet the instructor before class one, or be ready to drop after class one if you feel the wrong vibe. If someone does not instill confidence or calmness in you, move to someone that does. There are other instructors that can help - and even in the remotest of areas, you can still postpone a class or cert until you get to another instructor.

Do your homework. It is your life. You need to feel comfortable and calm with whichever instructor you go with. Yes, there are new instructors out there that look awfully young and inexperienced, but by meeting them prior to putting your life in their hands, you can remove those hands before it truly matters. The nice thing about diving classes is they are not mandatory, or even near so. If you take a major in college, you get slim pickings on the professor options. The good will make it, but I have had the wonderful opportunity to take classes with professors I could not believe were still teaching. I had limited choices. That does not hold for SCUBA.

Hmm... I probably should get off the soapbox before I get knocked off, but I think ReefHound, LeapFrog and others are in agreement on most of the points.... For those we're not... whatever .

I am ALWAYS willing to agree to disagree.:10:

 

[Ex-Aquanaut]

A lot of interesting points here and I have to give a shout out to Ryan (rrjc) for his defending of Zero to Hero programs (he did ours after learning about it right here on Scubaboard and has turned out to be a very good instructor.)

I'm not going to try to debate the negative opinions about such programs. Every program is different and there are good ones and there are bad ones. The one point I think is missing here is there seems to be an assumption that everyone who starts a "zero to hero" internship actually becomes an instructor.

Good, serious internship programs -- and of course I count our among those -- are long enough and hard enough that that many people who would become subpar instructors under other conditions (quick-and-dirty zero-to-heros or "a la carte" IDCs) are weeded out in programs like ours.

If you got a "minimum dives" DM who goes into an IDC center for 10 days, the CD is not really going to know if he's actually good enough to work int he industry. We see guys like Ryan or our other interns every day, sometimes 7 days a week, for 2 through 6 months. We learn pretty quickly who's not pro-diver material and those people often don't even make it to the IDC, or even get signed off as divemasters.

This year alone we've flunked 3 or 4 people on the IDC, shot down a guy coming to do IDC staff cuz he couldn't pass a skills circuit and refused to even send another to the IDC. Three others realized themselves they weren't cut out for it and just went home.

A good, responsible program -- zero to hero or not -- will produce quality instructors. Those just in it for the bucks will take and pass anyone. The tricky part is figuring out which one your signing up for before you pays your money.

Sorry Dwnunder, you may have thought we were too expensive, but look what you ended getting for your money.

 

[leapfrog]

This year alone we've flunked 3 or 4 people on the IDC, shot down a guy coming to do IDC staff cuz he couldn't pass a skills circuit and refused to even send another to the IDC. Three others realized themselves they weren't cut out for it and just went home.

OK Aquanauts, I read you and I understand how you manage to have a successful business in an industry where most of us are eating a bowl of rice and have permanent back pain. You guys probably even have a barter deal with the next door physiotherapist Anyway, this thread is about a Course Director being suspended. Now I read all the posts here and it looks like the ceritfication agency has no responsibility. Well, that just doesn't seem honest to me. This was not an Instructor, a MSDT or even a Staff Instructor. I don't know what other kind of job position or rank you guys would equate a CD with but it sounds to me like a CD is equivalent to a C-level person in a corporation or flag rank in the military. So what are we saying here? That a C-level person is thrown out of a company and the corporation is not liable for his mismanagement? That an admiral or a general screws up and is thrown out but the service takes no responsibility for his actions?
I would have thought that whoever "promoted" him to CD would tender their resignation..... because really, if the agencies can CERTIFY people to CERTIFY others but then don't want to know when they have to throw out the bad guys, it seems to me that the future of those same agencies is pretty bleak. :11:

 

[ReefHound]

Now I read all the posts here and it looks like the ceritfication agency has no responsibility. Well, that just doesn't seem honest to me.

Responsibility for what? It's not like the OP paid his tuition and didn't get it back or the certs. You think the agency is going to reimburse someone for the airfare flights? Get real, nobody in any industry accepts liability for indirect damages.

 

[leapfrog]

Responsibility for what? It's not like the OP paid his tuition and didn't get it back or the certs. You think the agency is going to reimburse someone for the airfare flights? Get real, nobody in any industry accepts liability for indirect damages.

Reef, I didn't mean economic responsibility. The OP is diving with PADI in Mexico with another instructor. So that's fine. I meant political or ethical responsibilty. Somebody made this guy a CD. He even became a Platinum CD according to what's been posted here. Don't you think somebody in the agency should be making a statement of some kind. This CD had instructors who he had "taught" who were not Staff Instructors teaching and training IDC candidates!

 

[tedtim]

.... I don't know what other kind of job position or rank you guys would equate a CD with but it sounds to me like a CD is equivalent to a C-level person in a corporation or flag rank in the military. So what are we saying here? That a C-level person is thrown out of a company and the corporation is not liable for his mismanagement? That an admiral or a general screws up and is thrown out but the service takes no responsibility for his actions?

I suggest that your analogy is misplaced. I was a chief instructor at a flight school in the military and was far from flag rank. Part of my responsibility was to ensure that the instructors on our staff were trained well, that they had the qualities to be an instructor, and that they maintained the skill and expertise to do so. An individual who has attained flag rank is far removed from the instructional arena. The Commanding Officer of my training unit was the last person who I would have expected to conduct any instruction or testing. He was simply not in the position to be flying the amount to the point where his instructional skills would have been up to par. OTOH, his expertise and experience were what got him to the position and he provided the leadership so that the rest of us could deliver the effective, quality training required.

Dive CDs instruct others to become instructors. There is a significant difference between them and the executive/management of the dive agency.

As for CDs, they represent the agency. There are a select few of them that certify instructors through the IE. A CD will conduct the instructor course and recommend that an individual undergoes the IE. The select individuals who conduct the IE are not the same person who conducts the instructor course. That is entirely an appropriate approach. I would hold the examiners to a higher standard. If a CD violates the standards, and they are reported or otherwise it is discovered that they violated standards I would hope that they are suspended. The rest is, quite frankly, none of our business. It is between the CD and the agency.

The real problem in this is that the agency only publishes a list of suspended members in very few locations. Your average diver will probably not even consider looking for this information, especially if the CD comes highly recommended.

The OP was screwed by the dive shop unless he was very clear that he was going to them to undergo training specifically with this particular CD. If the dive shop knew this and neglected or otherwise overlooked telling him that the CD was suspended, then they did not act appropriately.