Surface Supplied Air?

[Kug]

Dive Rescue International has the optional training in DRII to take "the surface supplied air" as part of their program, but it seems that they aren't offering it on a regular basis. My question is; are PSD teams using surface supplied air systems in rescue? I don't see or hear of it in the southeast. I've done a lot of searches here and on Google, but can't find much. What are your thoughts on it vs. SCUBA? What applications do you use it in? Pros and cons? I really don't know anything about S.S.A. and any info would be helpful. The one application I think that it would be useful in was this scenario we had last year. Victim gets swept over a waterfall and is forced by the flow into a seive (crack) at the base of the falls. The area was very shallow except in the pocket he was pinned in. A diver had to be pushed and held into the aerated portion of the water to reach the victim's limb. It was actually a lot safer than it sounds. But, the cumbersome BCD and FFM were hard to manage on the slick rocks, aerated water, ect.
Thanks,
Kug

 

[DA Aquamaster]

OSHA regs place some limitations on where scuba can be used.

Essentially if the dive is deeper than 130' scuba is not an option at all.

If the dive is 100' or below or outside the NDL's, scuba can be used but a recompression chamber must be available for scuba to be used.

Consequently, unless the department has a portable chamber, deco dives and dives below 100' are off limits on scuba per OSHA regs and the logic underlying the regs. The regs do not specify what kind of chamber is needed. I assume the intent was a chamber capable of doing a table 5 or 6 schedule but a less capable soft side portable chamber would probably meet the letter of the law and they can be had for around $25,000. Still, surface supplied equipment is cheaper.

Currents over 1.0 kt require a tender and dives in confined spaces require a tender or an in-water diver in visual contact. If you need a line tender, you just as well be using surface supplied gas as well.

Even with surface supplied gas, you will still need a bail out bottle.

All that said I have seen some PSD operations occur at depths below 100' on scuba with no recompression chamber in sight, so obviously some departments either ignore OSHA regs or are just ignorant of the regs and the logic underlying them.

Edit: The question was when would surface supplied gas be used and what would be the pros and cons of it's use. The OSHA regs provide good guidance in that area. I should clarify here that OSHA regs, do not specifically apply to government agencies or PSD operations but the logic does apply, or at least should apply, in the same manner as other PSD policies and procedures designed to prevent the diver's death. Ignoring the logic underlying the regs and using scuba outside the OSHA approved boundaries may be justifyable in a rescue situation but it is not in a recovery situation as the elvated risk to the diver is not offset by any potential benefit. So in those cases, the extra delay and expense of surface supplied gas is as relevant as the use of a safety diver.

The CFR dealing with scuba use:

29 CFR 1910.424(b)

Limits. SCUBA diving shall not be conducted:
1910.424(b)(1) At depths deeper than 130 fsw; (as in "Scuba diving shall not be conducted at depths greater than 130 ft.")
1910.424(b)(2) At depths deeper than 100 fsw or outside the no-decompression limits unless a decompression chamber is ready for use;
1910.424(b)(3) Against currents exceeding one (1) knot unless line-tended; or
1910.424(b)(4) In enclosed or physically confining spaces unless line-tended.
1910.424(c) Procedures.
1910.424(c)(1) A standby diver shall be available while a diver is in the water.
1910.424(c)(2) A diver shall be line-tended from the surface, or accompanied by another diver in the water in continuous visual contact during the diving operations.
1910.424(c)(3) A diver shall be stationed at the underwater point of entry when diving is conducted in enclosed or physically confining spaces.
1910.424(c)(4) A diver-carried reserve breathing gas supply shall be provided for each diver consisting of:
1910.424(c)(4)(i) A manual reserve (J valve); or
1910.424(c)(4)(ii) An independent reserve cylinder with a separate regulator or connected to the underwater breathing apparatus.
1910.424(c)(5) The valve of the reserve breathing gas supply shall be in the closed position prior to the dive.

 

[Gary D.]

IMHO SAA is not suitable for RESCUE mainly for the time needed to set up. For recovery and investigation dives it can be a very good tool.

In the scenerio you posted it still would have been a problem because there still would have been a FFM and as a normal set up an Bail Out Bottle with or without a BC. Hoses do not do as well in currents as one might think.

Another option may have been a smaller tank with a harness. Who was there pushing the diver down?

Sounds like you guys did a good job under some mighty rough conditions. They go over our dam we'll be back when they shut it down.

Gary D.

 

[BladesRobinson]

...The one application I think that it would be useful in was this scenario we had last year. Victim gets swept over a waterfall and is forced by the flow into a seive (crack) at the base of the falls. The area was very shallow except in the pocket he was pinned in. A diver had to be pushed and held into the aerated portion of the water to reach the victim's limb. It was actually a lot safer than it sounds. But, the cumbersome BCD and FFM were hard to manage on the slick rocks, aerated water, ect.

Kug,

The surface supplied air (SSA) system will still require a diver to wear a BC, full face mask and SCUBA cylinder so the idea of being less restricted does not app;ly. The benefit of SSA is the ability for a diver to have nearly an unlimited air supply if he were to become trapped underwater. It is certainly safer and in my opinion, a preferred option to carrying a second cylinder on the diver's back.

Interspiro has developed a pretty slick SSA systeam that provides hight pressure and depth and makes the tender's work much easier. There are no pneumo hoses and no regulator adjustements on the surface. There are too many benefits to list in an onoine post but the system is worthy of consideration. You can check it out at: Interspiro DP1

In addition to it being simple (KISS), it also deplys quickly and in my opinion, it could be used for rescue.

The Interspiro system is realitively new so there are not many in the field yet. I know Indianapolis has been looking at the systems and they may have purchased one. I am not aware of the present status. I also know that the Virginia State Police has scheduled a demo to evaluate the pros and cons.

Certainly, much more is explained in the Dive Rescue International program and students can learn first hand the benefits and applications of the SSA systems.

Regards,

Blades Robinson

 

[bridgediver]

some good info here from everyone.

I'd love to get our team on SSA but can't justify it for 2 reasons - it would be rare for us to go beyond 40ft and cost - you need buckets of $ to not only purchse these set ups but also for training and to maintain proficiency.
I'm on the fence about the speed and portability question between the 2 rigs. Scuba definately IS fast and portable; I'm not so sure about any SSA system equalling scuba in this regard - but they do seem to be getting better.

Its good that your OHSA was mentioned. Although some will argue that PSDs are exempt from this in the US (at least for now) you should definately think about why the standards say what they do. The depth restriction that DA quotes for scuba is a wise one to follow in my opinion. Our SOP's will restrict our search & recovery ops to 60ft - ALWAYS. It's just not worth the risk. Significant training and additional equipment is necessary to go beyond the 60ft mark. Remember that we are in a zero to blackwater entanglement rich environment most times. This is not sport diving
Certainly past 100ft I'd look to SSA teams.

BTW - Our PSDs are not exempt from our commercial dive standard in Canada the CSA, which is likely very similiar to your OHSA. We can comply to our CSAs here so I'm sure teams down there can find a way to comply to the OSHA (I admit that I'm not that well versed in OSHA but from what I've heard its not that bad, so just a guess)

mark

 

[PHIL RUDIN]

Several south Florida police dive teams are using SSA with hard hats. At the West Palm Beach P.D. where I spent over thirty years my team used the Kirby-Morgan Superlite 17's.

The reason is to avoid exposure to crap water, like diving in gas & oil at the port or water polluted for what ever reason.

Regarding OSHA, Metro-Dade, Miami Fla. has had a full time dive tean since 1961 and has never used the guidelines set down by OSHA. Police diving is not the same as recreational diving and it is for sure not the same as commercial diving. Guidelines should be established base on what police and fire divers do in their areas of the world. When the law suit comes you don't want to have an OSHA witnesses who knows nothing about what Police and fire do giving testimony any more than you would some PADI open water instructor who teaches a search course once a year.

Training and use at the port under a 500 foot ship.

Phil Rudin

 

[Kug]

Thanks for the feedback. It looks like We have a long way to go before we could afford such a system or to determine whether it would benefit our team or not.
To answer one of the questions, it was divers holding the diver down to reach the victim, basically the diver under water bcd and tank were still on the surface. This was a pretty shallow area other than the hole/crack the vic. was in. The AGA's were a little bit of a problem with the current.
On the other question, we rarely have any waterways here that go over 60', let alone 100', but our viz sucks, lucky us.
Thanks again.

 

[Lucy's Diver]

SSA air takes a very long time to set up. It is inappropriate for rescue work because of this. It is also very expensive and requires training.

That being said, there seem to be some misconceptions about it.

It is actually in its element in shallow dives. Because it takes a long time to dress out a two man dive team it is maximally efficient for these guys to work as long as possible underwater. We regularly do two hour dives in less then 30 feet, this is the bulk of my team's work; I've seen guys go four hours. You just keep working and working with no need to swap out tanks on the divers, topside just keeps feeding tanks to the console. In these shallow dives we do not use BCD's, just a navy harness and drysuit. The manifold set up requires some form of bailout bottle, on real shallow dives we go all the way down to 19 ponies on our backs (unless under ice, then we have 80s and a series of modifications to the gear).

Most of our dives like this are on AGA. Some are on hard hats, but those are not good for swimming. They are designed for a diver who is negative and not able to get positive. I've tried swimming it with a BC, its nearly impossible and not worth it. It also does not fully protect you from contaminated water. Your choices are to have a dedicated drysuit built to mate with the neck dam or just wear the neck dam seal over the drysuit neck seal. The former becomes cost prohibitive because you would need two drysuits for basically each team member. The latter allows water intrusion into the neck area, especially if you get upside down. The neck dam is also neoprene, which doesn’t do well in petroleum, and in any case there's all kinds of bad stuff in the water that can penetrate a vulcanized rubber suit. The hard hats, in my opinion, are good for penetrating large vehicles or collapsed areas. Not good at all for working a jackstay with a metal detector.

On deeper dives with the AGA you can use a BCD, or set up a single tank wing on a navy harness. The latter is more elegant, I think, with less clutter. I'm on a surface supply line, I need nothing that I would be putting in a BC pocket. For our team, the dive sup keeps track of each diver's bottom time and depth (the console can read each diver's depth, we assume the diver will be unable to see gauges) with standard PADI no D tables, with navy deco tables as a back up in case the diver has an entanglement or some other issue that causes him to overstay his bottom time. This too is the beauty of SSA - if I get all tangled up at least I know two important things: the rescue diver can find me by following my line and I will not run out of air; plus my com line is a hard line so I do not have the issues associated with thru water coms.

 

[bridgediver]

I knew there would be some that would take exception to my comments about OSHA

Regarding OSHA, Metro-Dade, Miami Fla. has had a full time dive tean since 1961 and has never used the guidelines set down by OSHA.

I'm sure their a top notch crew, Phil but just because they've been around a long time doesn't mean they're any safer or better than a team that is only 5yrs old. Procedures and equipment improve. Change is good.

Police diving is not the same as recreational diving and it is for sure not the same as commercial diving. Guidelines should be established base on what police and fire divers do in their areas of the world. When the law suit comes you don't want to have an OSHA witnesses who knows nothing about what Police and fire do giving testimony any more than you would some PADI open water instructor who teaches a search course once a year.

I agree with everything you say here but why is it that OSHA can never work for PSD? Further, would you not use an OSHA witness that knows PSD? What would force you to use someone that doesn't know PSD?
PSD is not commercial diving in the traditional sense of the word BUT the "O" in OSHA does stand for occupational and PSD is obviously an occupation whether you're paid or volunteer. If someone really wanted to push the issue... well, I can see your exemption being changed. It happened up here.
OSHA also should have provisions in there for PSD. The best thing to do is to work WITH them to make sure you get what you need in the document

Just something to think about

mark

 

[PHIL RUDIN]

Hi Mark,

First, I haver said that Miami's dive team is any better or more well trained than any other. I merely wanted to point out that this team and most in Florida do not except OSHA as having anything to do with how they should operate.

Police work, SWAT, police dogs, bomb squads, marine units are all "occupations" as well and none of these is regulated by OSHA in Florida. If a department is involved in a law suit regarding a failure to properly train and/or equipment is officers. The witnesses against the department will be from the law enforcement training community not from OSCA. My point is why would you want to set yourself up to defend your department from some outside agency instead of your own set of guidelines for the specific type of diving that you do. Law suits against the department are brought based on department policy not some outside agencies rules.
They can say you should have followed OSHA, Dive Rescue International, etc. all they want but your departments guidelines will be what makes the difference.

I am sure that OSHA rules make commercial diving safer but they are not necessarily any better than your departments own policy for your dive team and divers.

Police recovery teams and fire rescue teams need to develop policies and procedures
of their own to suit their needs not a one size fits all U.S. government set of rules.

Unless your state mandates that public safety dive teams abide by OSHA standards I would rather develop my own.

Phil Rudin