Sunnto lockouts?

[Liquid]

100-days-a-year,

When I do tech dives, I usualy keep the ascent rate at 10-20 m/m, wich doesn't trigger the alarm. I use it on niterox or air, depending on the amount of safety I want (I am still not certified for Trimix, but I soon will be). In any case-I never ever got locked. The only ways I know of to get locked are- 1- go deeper than 100 meters (330 fsw) or miss a mandatory safe stop and not returning to it in proper time. The Cobra/Vyper algorithm can deal with any ascent rate, only it will annoy you a bit if go to fast. when you become ok it will stop (It is somewhat annoying when exercizing emergency ascents). All in all, the algorith those computers are using is the BEST in the recreational market, period. If you do technical dives, and use deep stops, although you can't plan them with the computer, the reall time algorithm does acknowledge them and uses it in it's calculations.

The thing behind the ascent rate of those computers (sometimes it tells you you have to ascent a certain depth in a minimal amount of time) is a concept named "constant bleeding". It's a bit hard for me to explain in english, But i'll do something short. The idea is, that instead of 12' ,9' , 6' , etc. stops you ascent in a certain rate that eliminates the need for most of these stops. The "Gradient" keeps staying in the perimted area. That's what RGBM is all about. If you look for a true tech computer, I belive you will find your wish with Abysmal. It is also based on RGBM and alows use of user-inserted elements that the Vyper doesn't. Keep in mind that the vyper is a RECREATIONAL diving instrument, though in it's own limits it is great for limited tech dives.

P.S-
Check what model of a SUUNTO computer was used by your friend. If it's not Vyper/Cobra/Mosquito or any other newer model I am not aware of, than it uses older algorithms, and I dont really know how it functions, so it might be right with these older one.

 

[rcohn]

100days-a-year.

Let’s take a look at the few facts we know.

1. Your “friend” bought a very conservative computer while wanting to dive very aggressively. At first we would assume he did no homework and bought the computer because it looked good or some salesman happened to recommended it. In your second post you claim to be well informed. The reduction in bottom times is well documented and widely discussed on the boards, why in the world would your friend buy one? What are we forced to assume about your friend’s judgement?

2. Now your friend claims the display is hard to read. Suunto computers have been reviewed by both Rodale’s and Diver Magazines, neither found it hard to read. Multiple members of this board use Suunto computers, I don’t recall anyone claiming the displays are hard to read in general. Why is your friend the only one who finds it so difficult to read the display? Again, why in the world would anyone select a computer that they find hard to read? Did he ever look at one before buying one? He/you seem to have a grudge against Suunto and are wildly throwing out false charges.

3. Next complaint “Difficult to program all those bells and whistles.” Another complaint I don’t remember hearing before. After reading through the manual, I had not trouble at all programming mine, it’s easy and straightforward. Who else among the many Suunto users on this board agrees with this? Did your friend take the time to read the manual and learn about his new computer? Anyone of normal intelligence should have little problem. My mental image of your friend isn’t improving.

4. Moving onward you claim, ”Most important He was locked out 4 of 7 days due to the conservatism of the algorithm.That is to say that he found it nearly impossible doing multi-day repetitive dives.” These computers lock out when the are placed in mandatory deco and you do not complete the stops. Why would an experienced diver run a computer into decompression then blow off the stops? Did he lose control of his buoyancy and shoot to the surface? Mismanage his air supply and run his tank dry before completing his stops? Just ignore his computer and blindly follow the group, bowing to peer pressure? Please enlighten us.

5. You go on “Also the ascent rate is a bit slow altho very safe.” Then later “Also for deeper dives ascent rates can be much higher than 30 fpm,at least until you get to the 60-100 ft range.” DAN currently recommends a 30 ft/min rate for the entire ascent, not just the deeper portions. They are currently testing a 10 ft/min rate. Peter Bennett believes a slow ascent rate is key to safe diving. Technical divers have slowed their ascent rates too, deep stops act in part to slow the overall ascent rate. High rates of ascent deeper than 60 ft will soon join the old “follow your bubbles” and 60 ft/min ascent rate, dumped in the dustbin of diving history.

6. Next you go on to the following nonsense “A thing to consider,before they entered the market in the states,didn't they make Tabatas(TUSA)computers?I never heard such glowing reports about them then.” Reports have been fine about Suunto computers for years, search the archives, read the old Rodale’s and Diver magazine reviews. They were simultaneously in the market in the USA under the Seaquest brand, a very well known fact of which you are obviously unaware. The TUSA units are identical to the other except for the black color case. Show us a bad report on a TUSA computer made by Suunto. You claim to be well informed but demonstrate ignorance. This was another example of baseless charges, blindly thrown about to attack Suunto.

7. “The friend mentioned in no way violated any safe diving practices.” When did it become a “safe diving practice” to select a computer, run it into deco, violate the ascent rate of it’s model, then blow off the deco stops so that the computer locks you out?

What more can I say? To say the very least, you and your friend do not seem to be reliable sources of information on Suunto computers or up to date diving practices.

Ralph

 

[bradymsu]

Tony,

I have a guess at what happened with your friend's computer. From my experience with my Cobra, it's my best guess and hopefully will end the quibbling on this post.

You said your friend had some problems programming his Cobra. It's possible that while moving through the settings, he either set it to a more conservative mode or to an altitude diving mode. I can see how that would be easy to do on accident. The Cobra allows for several options depending on a divers comfort level and the height above sea level they are at. That would explain the lockout.

When I first got my Cobra, I just jumped in the water with it and didn't bother to go through the instruction card. I'm not an instruction manual type of person. Later, when I had the options on the Cobra explained to me, I sat down and toyed around with it a bit. Now it wouldn't want to switch to any other computer except maybe the Aladinn O2 because it's hoseless and the alarms are easier to hear underwater.

 

[100days-a-year]

Gosh Ralph,perhaps you didn't notice the smiley on my post.These are not baseless charges ,they are observations.My friend bought the thing based on the reviews you mentioned.Civility and my dignity require I answer you questions.Please reply similarly.I do not visit techdiver and similar lists because of those type of replies to others.Try several other brands of computer in your LDS.The Vyper he had was not the simplest I've found to configure.As for your comments about how we dove,neither of us ever violates directions from our computer.AS for the ascent rate changing soon.I've yet to see these changes implemented in the technical community in Florida to any degree.To Brady,Thanx but I'll wait a coupla years on the Abyss.I'd hate to beta-test at 300 ft.It looks promising tho and much smaller than the VR3

 

[rcohn]

I thought I'd add some info from the technical side of diving in support of slow ascents during the deep phases of the dive. While they are talking about decompression diving, the dives in the previous Suunto discussion were deco dives according to the computer and, as it is often said, all scuba dives are realy decompression dives.

From Richard Pyle,
http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?4221,subject

First,it might be best if computers and/or tables maintained a 33ft/min ascent rate even during deep ascents, because deep ascents are the ones likely to include the greatest pressure differential in a "single shot".

From George Irvine,
http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?38814,subject

The ascent rate is 30 fpm, or the equivalent of a 20 second stop every ten feet from the bottom, so we are really only adding 40 seconds per "stop" from 80% of the profile.

http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?38612,subject

I'd start the bottom time at depth, stop it as soon as I began ascending,and ascend at 30 fpm, actually stopping intentionally every ten feet to be sure to keep that ascent slow enough.

Ralph

 

[rcohn]

As for your comments about how we dove,neither of us ever violates directions from our computer.

Very interesting, please explain to us how you lock out a computer without violating directions? I certainly can't think of a way to do it.

Also, I'm unclear as to why anyone who wants to dive agressively would buy a conservative computer after reading the reviews? Can you enlighten me?

Ralph

 

[jmsdiver]

I have only seen the Vyper (Cobra w/o air) lock out one time: a buddy of mine was diving a 140 steel with a single strap BCD; the strap failed, dumping the 140 at 100 feet (30m); loss of weight = uncontrolled ascent, blown stop (as stated in earlier posts, going up too fast makes for a ceiling around 10-20 feet), computer locked out.

Morale: don't dive a 140 with a single strap, get a tech bc with at least two straps.

Beyond that: I have been diving for a little over a year with the Vyper and have never had it lock out; I've been in deco, but always followed the recommendations of the computer and was able to safely ascend and make another dive.

Cheers

 

[100days-a-year]

Last post Ralph,I appreciate your dogged determination to to get to bottom of this.All of my software including Proplanner and others do not support the 30 fpm alto the deep stops do in effect the overall ascent rate.The friend bought the computer due to reviews claiming it was the best .I agree that I didn't buy it due to the conservatism.I'd love to know why it violated also.Perhaps tats why I answered the post.Thanx and see ya 'round

 

[Liquid]

Come on guys, cool off a bit.

It's just a discussion ment to enlighten others of your opinions, no reason to be personal.

Tony- It does seem wierd a bit though. Maibe the computer malfunctioned? or was set to an extra safe mode?

From my experience, in cases the same as you mentioned, as long as I kept the mandatory stops, and the overall ascent time I never got locked. There's something missing here to complete the picture. If you dived, according to a software, than why didn't your friend put the computer of gauge mode?

I belive that diving with 2 dive different dive plans for the same dive can be almost as dangerouse as having no plan at all. A computer is a real-time dive plan, If you use it you have to stick to it's directives. Making a backup plan in case it malfunctioned is very adviseable, but the computer should have the last word as long as it works, otherwise, why use it at all?

The last paragraph is the issue for a completely different discussion, but still, it is an important issue.

 

[100days-a-year]

liquid,thanx.I agree with 1 plan.Perhaps the computer was malfuntioning?We dove as computer divers as none of it required any homework to dive<130ft 40mtr.As for our heated discussion,sorry.I visit this board only as the rest treated others poorly.I suppose the anonymity of an e-conversation can bring out the best and the worst in all of us.