Strongly considering solo diving - lets talk

[MikeFerrara]

I agree with you Scott and I think there is an obligation for more experienced divers to pass on their experience to newer divers.

It's a nice thing to do but I don't feel there's any obligation at all.

As an instructor I feel an obligation to extend a standing invitation to students to come and dive with us. I offer to mentor not just certify. I often offer to dive with less experienced divers to lend a hand if they're trying to get ahead. I do it because I know their access to resources are limited.

However, I won't babysit a product of our very broken dive training system unless that diver is of the right attitude. If the average new diver doesn't feel ready to dive without supervission they need to voice that to their instructors and the agency. If they're not good enough that others want to dive with them they need to go back for a refund. If they can't participate in a dive that's appropriate for their training level without ruining anothers dive, again, they need to go back for a refund because there isn't any reason for a certified diver not to be able to hjold up their end. The system should not depend on those who have paid their dues to pick up the slack. Not my job man.

If a resort wants to cater to those who have cards before they should then they should do the babysitting. After all they're getting paid. All broken systems need some one to take up the slack and if they do there's no reason to fix the system. Maybe if, after a skill assesment, some of these divers were refused a seat on the boat which would be the right thing to do sometimes, they'd go back to the bozo who certified them and complain.

That's exactly what I do when students come to me from another instructor for an advanced class. With INCREASING frequency after an assesment I tell them they're not ready to do a deep dive or a S&R dive. I of course offer to remediate the basics with them but that's a whole seperate charge. Most are bad enough that they'll essentially end up paying for their OW all over again. They should go back and complain because they were cheated. They got a card instead of training rather than as evidence of training. Usually though they just go elsewhere and get an AOW card in a weekend by crawling around the bottom through 5 dives. Not my fault and not my problem.

 

[simbrooks]

Lots of folks dive solo. I happen to be one. I never recommend the practice. For most people, it is extremely dangerous. You either have the skills and knowledge to dive solo or you don't. If you do, there's no reason to discuss it. If you aren't sure, you don't. Discussing the issue in a public forum merely results in encouraging others to adopt the practice. Most of the divers out there need to dive with a DM holding their hand, we don't want them thinking about going alone.

As shown above, Walter does it, doesnt recommend it, but was a little surprised/concerned about it, just wondering why, so i dont take it that he is opposed to all doing it. As for religion, lets not go there!

I am not saying i have all the skills and equipment to dive solo beyond where i am comfortable with an ESA, but a shallow dive with careful consideration and planning/forethought i would be comfortable with and make myself super-concious of what i was doing at all times. Like i said i know my limitations and what i am comfortable with, and a 30ft max dive in a lake i know reasonably well for a short time (to 800psi on an AL80) would have seemed reasonable.

 

[HammerNoMore]

To play devils advocate...
James, why are you spending so much money something you can't ensure you're going achieve?

I've only been on a few trips without a buddy. They are basicly business trips where I throw in the weekend to get some diving. I've been lucky and always had decent buddies on these few occations.

However on many other trips I've seen people paired up with poor divers. Note that poor divers are more often than not, not new divers, but people who dive once every 5 years or so. On lead trips, often the DM sends this person up by themselves and continues the dive with everyone, including their buddy.

Sometimes they don't. If that were to happen to me I would probalby sit out the next dive (or the first if the problems became obvious above the surface), call Amex and get my money back and find a shore dive or someone else to dive with for the afternoon/next day.

Instead of harrassing Scott and telling he's ruining your trip

Nope, I'm harrasing Scott because he seems to belive that it is my responsibility to babysit/coddle/whatever some perfect stranger who happens to be on the boat with me. His personal skills or possible lack there up have never entered into my posts and are frankly irrelevant.

The question is not whether or not Scott can dive, but why he expects vacationing divers to handhold people who are out of their element.

As DA said, when you are at your local quarry/pond/bathub, common curtesy maintains that you aid your fellow divers. But when I've boarded a plane to find saltwater, I want my money's worth.

James

 

[HammerNoMore]

It's a nice thing to do but I don't feel there's any obligation at all.

Exactly.

As an instructor I feel an obligation to extend a standing invitation to students to come and dive with us. I offer to mentor not just certify.

Which is the exact reason I don't instruct. I don't have the patience for it, nor the desire to do so.

If they're not good enough that others want to dive with them they need to go back for a refund. If they can't participate in a dive that's appropriate for their training level without ruining anothers dive, again, they need to go back for a refund because there isn't any reason for a certified diver not to be able to hjold up their end. The system should not depend on those who have paid their dues to pick up the slack. Not my job man.

Again, my point exactly.

If a resort wants to cater to those who have cards before they should then they should do the babysitting.

Which goes to my previous post. I seek out advice on operaters and in most cases they do take up the slack.

 

[HammerNoMore]

BTW since this discussion had been taken off track, I would recomend one of the mod's move the messages discussing the responsibilities of divers be moved to a new thread.

 

[Scott M]

It's a nice thing to do but I don't feel there's any obligation at all.

As an instructor I feel an obligation to extend a standing invitation to students to come and dive with us. I offer to mentor not just certify. I often offer to dive with less experienced divers to lend a hand if they're trying to get ahead. I do it because I know their access to resources are limited.

However, I won't babysit a product of our very broken dive training system unless that diver is of the right attitude. If the average new diver doesn't feel ready to dive without supervission they need to voice that to their instructors and the agency. If they're not good enough that others want to dive with them they need to go back for a refund. If they can't participate in a dive that's appropriate for their training level without ruining anothers dive, again, they need to go back for a refund because there isn't any reason for a certified diver not to be able to hjold up their end. The system should not depend on those who have paid their dues to pick up the slack. Not my job man.

If a resort wants to cater to those who have cards before they should then they should do the babysitting. After all they're getting paid. All broken systems need some one to take up the slack and if they do there's no reason to fix the system. Maybe if, after a skill assesment, some of these divers were refused a seat on the boat which would be the right thing to do sometimes, they'd go back to the bozo who certified them and complain.

That's exactly what I do when students come to me from another instructor for an advanced class. With INCREASING frequency after an assesment I tell them they're not ready to do a deep dive or a S&R dive. I of course offer to remediate the basics with them but that's a whole seperate charge. Most are bad enough that they'll essentially end up paying for their OW all over again. They should go back and complain because they were cheated. They got a card instead of training rather than as evidence of training. Usually though they just go elsewhere and get an AOW card in a weekend by crawling around the bottom through 5 dives. Not my fault and not my problem.

Maybe there should be two or even three seperate dive boats each with different level of experience required.

One for the Pro's, you can hang and dive with the elite. Dive deep, long and hard. No DM's just a captain. They could supply the compressor the banks of mixes and could whip your soup and have at it. No worries.

One for the average vacation Joe diver that may who may not have his own buddy but has no problem taking the unknown diver, again your hanging with the group closest to your level. Couple of DM's just in case.

Then the totally noob boat, you would pay a little more but would have your own DM and could enjoy the dive at your own level of experience.


Scott

 

[HammerNoMore]

Maybe there should be two or even three seperate dive boats each with different level of experience required.

Unfortunatly the realtiy of the situation is that that is not really financially viable.

Then the totally noob boat, you would pay a little more but would have your own DM and could enjoy the dive at your own level of experience.

This is called a class, which is, I belive, everyone's point. You need to be properly trained for the diving you are doing.

James

 

[Mo2vation]

Everyone - Thanks so much for the discussion on this. Lots of good stuff here.

Scott - thanks for the PM. Its all good, buddy.

For clarification, the guy I dove with in Monterey (the newbie) I would have loved to spend time with him, doing the whole mentoring thing, or at the very least making sure we were both OK. During out pre-dive interview, when this guy told me he had 12 dives, I could have rolled my eyes and gone to the DM and said no way (PS: done that before) but after talking with the guy, I decided lets roll with it. He had all the right answers, was fit, enthusiastic and had his own rig.

The problem was this guy wasn't safe. I thumbed the first dive at 21 minutes because he was unable to follow our pre-dive plan - which was to go to 40' (stop, achnowledge) then go 50' and dive. On the surface, I asked him to clear his mask (it was fogged before we even got under)... Throughout the dive, he was fogged, had very little control, and rocketed past me at 40, didn't stop, rocketed past me at 50. I went to about 66 (I think) and grabbed him, pulled him back to 50. Made the level off sign we discussed 10 minutes earlier. He gave me a "huh?"... I wrote out the plan in my wet notes - showed it to him again... you get the idea. So I thumbed it. I said return to the boat at 20'. I did. He was at at least 35 or 40... I had to go down, grab him again.... it was sad.

On dive two, something happened. It all came together for the guy. I gave him some de-fog (he had none) we went over the plan again, and it was good - like a completely different guy. He was still shakey, but much more in control. He blamed the first dive on his fogged mask. It was only a 30 minute dive (Avg 40') because he hoovered his 80. But we had a good profile, and safe stops.

Sometimes being the more experienced diver means shaking your buddy and thumbing the dive. Honestly - I regret being away from my family on T-giving Friday for 11 hours for two babysitting dives, but it is what it is. Monterey was gorgeous, conditions unseasonably perfect, viz well over 50'... it was magic. But in retrospect, I would have rather been with my family for those 11 hours than getting a 21 minute dive and a 30 minute dive.

Going on dive boats alone is always a roll of the dice. Usually it works out for me, sometimes it doesn't. I won't buddy up with hunters, rebreathers, the morbidly obese, or anyone who in the pre-dive chat comes off as unsafe. You never know until you get into the water. My purpose in bringing this discussion forward is I'm considering a third-party alternative... I'd like to develop a solo diving skill set.

Peace.

 

[Scott M]

Nope, I'm harrasing Scott because he seems to belive that it is my responsibility to babysit/coddle/whatever some perfect stranger who happens to be on the boat with me. His personal skills or possible lack there up have never entered into my posts and are frankly irrelevant.

To clarify, I was speaking to Ken in my original repsonse to which you added your responses. I do not expect YOU to do anything. You do not have to dive with anybody you do not chose to, you do not have to babysit anyone. If buddied up then respectfully decline and move on. I am sure you will be doing both yourself and the noob a favor. You are not forced by me or anyone else for that matter to do anything you do not want to.

I do have a question. I realise, like me or anyone else for that matter you have the right to be on any dive trip you chose. But...With the obvious experience level you have why would you want to dive with a bunch of yahoo noobs? With your experience wouldn't you be able to chose a dive more appropriete to your level of skill and training? These dives would certainly not be open to the noobs.

Going to places like PDC and Coz you know there are going to be noobs, why are you booking into something like that? You know their going to be there, don't you? I don't go places I prefer not to. Why is that these trips belong to only you?

How fun do you think it is for the noob (who paid the same amount you did) to have to put up with you?

P.S. For the record, If for some reason I did end up on a boat and ruined someones dive I would offer to reinburse that person, apologize and offer to buy them a dinner. Maybe not enough to cover the loss but, I would not just walk away.

Scott

 

[HammerNoMore]

Everyone - Thanks so much for the discussion on this. Lots of good stuff here.

On dive two, something happened. It all came together for the guy. I gave him some de-fog (he had none) we went over the plan again, and it was good - like a completely different guy. He was still shakey, but much more in control. He blamed the first dive on his fogged mask.

I know this was not the case here but it brings up another point, which is that even good divers have problems. On the second dive of my Puerto Rico trip in November, I had an o-ring blow out on my HP hose. (I know, I guess I have to add testing the tightness of hose connections to pre-dive....)

The o-ring went at about 60'. I got my the attention of my wife and the DM. Signaled I was OK but aborting and signaled for them to buddy up. I did not expect my wife to abort her dive because I had an equipment problem.

James