Stevsgarage wants a cool BC

[Northeastwrecks]

Perhaps we should also separate it into jackets, back inflates and BP&W's. I'd hate to burden anyone looking at a jacket with discussions of Rangers and Black Diamonds.

The question relates to the "coolest" (read "best") BC. A BC is device to control buoyancy. IMHO, BP&W are the coolest means of controlling buoyancy.

Excluding certain type of gear is inappropriate unless the poster requests it. Has it occured to you that a diver might not have had exposure to the other types of gear out there? Or that the shop s/he visited might not have much in stock?

I respectfully suggest that you do the same as the rest of us. Give the best advice you can and support your position.

 

[leadweight]

You are stating your opinion of what is inappropriate. I really believe that some clarification is needed here. As to exposure, it would make sense to tone things down and say "consider the backplate alternative" but say no more unless the original poster expresses an interest. Some will be intersted, leave the others alone. The overselling of BP's has turned this forum into the number one place to not get good information on any kind of BC other than BP's.

Northeastwrecks, you seem a bit too ready to sell the BP idea to people who are obviously not interested.

I am not against free speach. What I oppose is the heckler's veto. A situation where a very loud minority takes over the entire debate.

Things have gotten so impolite and strident that free discussion is no longer possible.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Nothing I've said in this thread is impolite or strident.

I see nothing to suggest that the poster (as opposed to you) are "obviously not interested." My post was neither loud nor heckling.

Would you like me to run my future posts past you so that we can make sure that you approve? Perhaps it would just be better if you created a series of sock puppets with whom you can talk.

I identified the various BC's (subcategory BP&W) to be considered and why I believe them to be appropriate. Since you're bringing up the quality of the advice, however, I'll point out that you recommended a product with no facts to back it up, such as its functionality, ease of travel, quality of construction, comfort, etc...

My recommendation is self contained and it stands on its own merits. Start your own board if you don't like it.

 

[The Chairman]

but I also own Seaquest's Chute II, which I use a LOT with single tanks. I don't have to assemble it, I don't have to explain it; it just plain works and works rather well. I have no problems with trim and/or buoyancy and I even dive steel HP 120s with it. With aluminum tanks, I tend to be a bit too forward when on the surface (it's a back inflate) but a steel tank gives me a nice heads up profile when I want it, and a slightly head down profile when I am submerged. The best of both worlds. Yeah, it looks cool too, which I don't hold against it. Everything has at least one drawback. :tease:

As for those that "push" the BP & wings set-up, they are convinced that they are perfect for every diving situation. Who or where they got it from is irrelevant. It's what they truly believe, and no one will convince them otherwise. I reserve my BP & wings for when I dive doubles... IMHO, it's what they are best suited for. But then, I am not trying to convince the world that they are doing everything wrong, either. :tease:

 

[MikeS]

My old BC looks a little ragged and very much out of date. I think something very cool is in order.

I want something I can travel with but still use in the local lakes, moderate to warm water rec diving.

My first BC was a Seaquest Balance, weight integrated, back inflation BC.

I prefer weight integrated because I like having everything connected together, to minimize task loading when heading to the water (you never hear of anyone jumping in the water without their integrated weight system).

I prefer back inflation for several reasons, first I don't like the squeeze associated with jacket style BCs and secondly I think back inflation makes it easier to maintain a horizontal orientation, which is where you want to be most of the time. The Balance is kind of minimalist as BCs go, the front is very open and it's not encumbered with a lot of unnecessary gadgets and d-rings.

Although I liked the BC I looked beyond it for a couple of reasons. First, I liked the idea of a doughnut shaped bladder that allows air to be dumped from any orientation, using the top front or bottom rear dumps. In addition, as I started wanting to carry more gear such as a light, wreck reel, pony bottle etc. I wanted more flexibility in where the d-rings were located, and not be stuck with where they looked good on the Seaquest model. So I got a halcyon back plate and 36 # wing. I must admit that it took a lot of effort to adjust it initially but now that it’s adjusted, I love it. For those of you that think BP&W are not appropriate for rec diving I suggest you don’t try one because you are apt to fall in love as I did. I still have the Balance but haven’t used it since I got the BP&Ws.

I don’t think that you need a BP&W to dive safely. In fact, I think if you develop good buoyancy and trim you could dive with rocks duct tapped to your body and garbage bags as a bladder (although at Sillgrendels suggestion I’m thinking of changing to a few selectively placed empty milk jugs). However, in my opinion the BP&WS are simply the best available option.

As far as travel, my biggest problem was the fins not the BC. I have Mares Plana Avanti Quattro fins which are very long so I had to find a suitcase long enough. Neither the Balance or the BP&W are an issue traveling as the Balance lays very flat and you can take the BP&W apart and it becomes even flatter.

Hope this helps,
Mike

 

[ElectricZombie]

Suggesting a BP is consistant with the individual's original request.

When someone says "I want a cool BC.", suggesting a BP is only natural.

It would be foolish to separate posts based on if they mention BPs or not.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Actually, you might be surprised. All I want is proof, not rhetoric and Rodales reviews.

 

[Dryglove]

leadweight once bubbled...


You are stating your opinion of what is inappropriate. I really believe that some clarification is needed here. As to exposure, it would make sense to tone things down and say "consider the backplate alternative" but say no more unless the original poster expresses an interest. Some will be intersted, leave the others alone. The overselling of BP's has turned this forum into the number one place to not get good information on any kind of BC other than BP's.

What is wrong with stating the reasons why a bp is a good setup.I have seen plenty of good info on bp's and bc's alike.There is probably a good reason why BP/wings are recommended by a lot of divers.They are a great setup.

leadweight once bubbled...


Northeastwrecks, you seem a bit too ready to sell the BP idea to people who are obviously not interested.

I dont see him selling anything but listing some positive aspects of a bp/wing.There is nothing wrong with educating someone and let them make their own choice.Who are you to decide if a person is interested in a certain product.That person can make their own decision.All of the options will be put on the table for him to decide.A bp/wing is not a common bc sold in a lot of diveshops therefore a lot of people have very little knowledge of them

leadweight once bubbled...


I am not against free speach. What I oppose is the heckler's veto. A situation where a very loud minority takes over the entire debate.

leadweight once bubbled...


Things have gotten so impolite and strident that free discussion is no longer possible.

Just because someone states why they dive a certain way and lists good reasons behind their motives does not make them impolite or disallow free discussion.
For the record i own a scubapro knighthawk and a halcyon pioneer.The knighthawk is a great bc and highly recommend it,but my halcyon in my opinion is a much better setup.Had i known about bp/wings prior to purchasing my knighthawk i would have saved close to 650.00.Oh well live and learn.Thats why i see no problems with recommending a bp/wing to someone that might be uninformed or know the positive aspects of one.

 

[raxafarian]

You say that it's wrong to recommend bp/wings? I think it's wrong to recommend the so-called "tech" bc's like the zeagle ranger. Some people love them. I think they are a waste of money.

I avoided the jacket to zeagle to bp route only because my wife made the unfortunate purchase of a zeagle concept II.

It is unfortunate that the majority of shops don't seem to offer a bp/wing hanging on the wall next to the other bc's. The new diver usually only has the LDS's recommendations to base purchases on. These recommendations, in my opinion, and based upon my personal observations, tend to be biased. Would the shop rather sell something that's in stock? Yes. Something that makes them more money? of course.

Don't buy gadgets. Don't buy gimmicks. Try as many different bc's as possible. Dive with a variety of other divers... ask their opinion. If you have to buy something before you have a chance to try different bc's... or if you just don't know what type of diving you might be doing in the future.... stick to a basic jacket style bc.

Jacket-style, back-inflate, and bp/wing are all bc's. Do you also want to break the fins forum into split fins and regular fins? How about separate forums for single lens masks and multiple lens masks?

Maybe a backplate/wing isn't right for some people. After using one, I see no reason to use anything else. I think it's better than anything else out there. Why is it such a problem to recommend a bp? I'm not throwing DIR down anybody's throat. A bp/wing does not mean DIR.


I'll state my opinions on why I like the backplate:
1. allows me to remove weight from my belt
2. most other bc's are positively buoyant... takes even more weight. Not a bp.
3. No extra crap flapping around
4. ideal for singles and doubles
5. configurable for ANY diving I will ever do



If you are buying a bc based upon what advertising says is "cool", then disregard everyones opinion and be happy with whatever you end up with. Try and remain happy with it for a couple of years.

 

[leadweight]

First of all, my post considered members being impolite or strident as a general problem. The only part of that post which was specific to you was the overselling of BP's.

Secondly, your tone in the above quoted post has definitely turned strident, and for no good reason.

Third, it is just your opinion that the starter of the thread wants to hear about BP's. Considering that he asked about three jacket BC's and the hub, it is far more reasonable to assume that he wants information on jacket BC's. That is why such a rule of statutory construction was adopted in the first place. IMO, backplates are off topic here and I probably should have limited my first post to jacket possibilities.

Fourth, I did give reasons for using a TP2, however briefly. I have used a BP and much rather dive my TP2 because it does not chafe my underarms in a 3 mil, does not need a crotch strap, is easier to adjust and keeps the tank closer to my back while offering streamlining equal to that of the Pioneer/BP setup, perfect trim with a tank weight that I don't have to carry on the airplane, packs in even less space and weighs less in my suitcase. Oh, yes it has slide fasteners, so I must be doomed. As for the Scubapro, it seems to fit the desire for pnumatic inflation control. The Balance and Escape are minimalist solutions which offer most of the advantages of the TP2 in a non-modular, single tank only, package. The Sherwood and Dacor I must 'fess that I am offering on an investigate only basis as they are among a few back inflate BC's without excessively sized air cells.

As for separating jackets from back inflate from BP's that is really a red herring argument. The problem is with BP's being oversold. However, I would accept a three way split as a compromise provided that references to different categories of BC's be limited to mentioning the opportunity to enter one of the other 2 forums. This board has a lot of good forums (Dr. Deco is outstanding), but until a backplate free zone is established for BC's this BC forum remains a wasteland. In the meantime, you and others are doing more to undermine your position by acting in such an angry and overbearing way.