Steam Machine Prizm?

[wetlettuce]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...
Buchaly and Waldbrenner would have any problems as the former put the "RB" into RB80 and the latter is his dive partner. They can always be testing...
I did ask Michael the same question though, the somewhat explicit answer came down to 'I dive with what I need' and 'I choose my equipment, not some office jockey'.
As I rather doubt there are any gov't officials in Germany who have their knowledge and experience that stand makes sense. :upset:

I am absolutely sure that the EKPP know what they need, they have proven it over and over, but the EC is run by idiots who have little idea of the real world, and if they decide something is illegal and then they decide to police it then the EKPP will have to play by the EC rules (unless you're French of course !)

I hate interference of anykind by the EC and I was just concerned over the point MadMole raised. They seem to be treating rebreathers like fuel emissions, trying to push the manufacturers each year therefore increasing costs of production and causing the appearance of dissimilar models as each year the WOB will need to be improved, and does that improve the efficiency of the unit or help the unit to be developed more in the interests of the consumer?

I don't think so as there seems to be little attempt by the EC to compare against OC in that regard. WOB surely is based on the workload during the dive and it has been stated elsewhere that they base this on 1.6l per minute which is for most people unsustainable for any length of time, so this WOB requirement just becomes academic, which is just were the EC prefer to be, adrift of the real world requirements and just run by researchers and scientists.

Ah well, start planning for emigration !!

WL

 

[KentCe]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...
Quite frankly, the cost does make the CE-mark hard to justify. What was the latest price quote, 70 grand? I can see why the US builders stay away from it. And remember, that just the testing. If anything needs change to get approval, that comes on top. To justify that you would have to sell a lot of RBs in Europe. Which probably means setting up a dealer/supply network. Get instructors to certify on the units ... and all not knowing how many you can sell.

Even 10+ years ago when I was running a business on my own 70k wouldn't be that big of a deal (and is deductable). They should be making about 2k to 3k per unit, so even if they sold 50 units in two years to the overseas market they made their money. And there are the possible law suits. I assume it would be easier to defend the design tested by an independent lab.

Would anyone want their home electrical system (wiring, plugs, circuit breakers, smoke detectors, etc.) from a supplier that hasn't passed any tests?

True, testing doesn't mean X is better than Y. And doesn't mean the next unit off the production line doesn't have problems that would fail the same test (due to production problems, design changes requires re-certification). It just means it has pass a set of tests for whatever that is worth to the consumer.

For me, its worth something (about 20%) but wouldn't be the only factor.

 

[KentCe]

ronccr once bubbled...
WOW, can FACTS get blown out of proportions about PRISM by those who clearly are not experts in and/or the PRISM Rebreather.

Fact:
* documented test data from outside sources (US NAVY) that are not in control of the manufactur themselves... in laymens terms, they can not cheat, mis-lead or manipulate the test data.

* US NAVY tested well over 25 rigs (closer to 40) & the PRISM excelled to the top. Do your homework, just because someone states it's tested by the NAVY does not mean it has passed which is why PRISM provides the US NAVY test results. Try to get written data from another manuafactur? You can not because it does not exsist.

Steam Machine stated on their web site that they have been working with the Navy since early 2001. I assume due to their existing working relationship with the Mk15. During many stages of selection, the manufactor has the ability to make changes / improvements to the equipment submited. As they understood the issues the Navy had with the Mk15, I assume the initial Prism units were based on that feedback. Its been almost two years now and they are still "testing" CCR units. I would assume problems were found and modifications have been made. And the Navy may have unique requipments that requires changes. For example, if the Navy wanted a cool black protective cover, I'm sure Steam Machine would make one.

It seems that some are asserting the Navy just bought X units off the shelf and tested them. I'm sure the Prism of today doesn't look like the Prism in early 2001. Given two years, even the RB80 could be fixed as a good CCR unit.

There are other issues like will the company be around tomorrow, the size and ability to produce X units. Training. And of course the good old buy USA theme. I'm sure a number of users on this forum could build a better (and cheaper) CCR from available parts that would exceed the Navy requirements, but doubtful the Navy would buy it. And some companies don't care to muck with the Navy and won't bother making changes and will fall out of the running early. Maybe the order is only for 100 units or so?

The book "The Black Rifle: M16 Retrospective" by R. Blake Stevens and Edward C. Ezell has a very interesting section of the development of the M16 and the back room politics during the M1 vs M16 trials.

I will agree that the Navy working with Steam Machine for over two years (and maybe many more years to come) will result in a very good CCR. In buying a new CCR, it would be about 30% in my decision.

 

[caveseeker7]

Hi KentCe,

if you go through the test file available at Steammachine's website you'll find a change or two they wanted. Like the ppO2 displays changed from info/readouts to a simple go/no go indicator. That might suffice their needs, but I'm sure most civilian divers would like to have that information displayed. I know I do, preferably all the sensors all the time. Reponse time of the O2 cells give you an idea of their state, I like and want that. NAVY divers are obviously mission oriented and want the least amount of fuzz & distraction. About the black cover that is now available I guess you're right, the military probably requested it.

I agree that the company building the unit is important, yet that makes it hard for new ones to succeed.

Since you're making those percentages for a decision, I'm curious what the rest of them are.

 

[KentCe]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...
Since you're making those percentages for a decision, I'm curious what the rest of them are.

My percentages (which will exceed 100% <g>):

45% Close support/training. My local dive store (2 miles from my house) provides training and support for the Inspiration (only $7355 with ADV). And as the only CCR shop in the area, better chance to bump into other Inspiration users.

20% Its been on the market for a while and the production / training bugs have been worked out.

20% CE tested.

30% Navy tested.

15% Great third-party support and web sites.

15% Developed in cold water/poor vis/dry glove environment. Just like the NorthWest.

20% A company that is human with frank talk, good support and detail information on their web site.

Currently the Inspiration with Cochan Commander computer is the front runner.

 

[caveseeker7]

I don't have the percentages down like you do, but most of what you wrote makes sense ...

KentCe once bubbled...

45% Close support/training. My local dive store (2 miles from my house) provides training and support for the Inspiration (only $7355 with ADV). And as the only CCR shop in the area, better chance to bump into other Inspiration users.

The training is a lesser issue, as there are only so many RB classes offered. Finding a good and experienced instructor is usually harder than just finding one. The support of course is important, having a stocking dealer is nice. Living in the L.A. area, my stocking dealer is about 40mls as the crow flies.
Problem is, I'm not the crow, it takes about an hour and a half to get there.:upset: Steammachines is closer ... .

20% Its been on the market for a while and the production / training bugs have been worked out. [/B]

I agree. Same for the Prism, though ... . I believe they are still working on the Megalodon.

20% CE tested. 30% Navy tested. [/B]

You changed that on me, didn't you. If you're original post was CE-certified, you'd need recertification. $$$ bye,bye. Good to see you trust the NAVY more than the European lawmakers. The main problem with the CE-mark for me is that one unit carrying it appearantly doesn't quite live up to it. Loses value. The main reason I want CE-cert is to have less hassles diving in Europe.

15% Great third-party support and web sites. [/B]

Agree again, especially the user feedback, their tips and help is great.

15% Developed in cold water/poor vis/dry glove environment. Just like the NorthWest. [/B]

The Megalodon is from the NW, and if you time it right (or wrong) SoCal can be close enough for the Prism to qualify. But you're right, if it works under such conditions it'll work when they improve.

20% A company that is human with frank talk, good support and detail information on their web site. [/B]

Yes, they have been pretty good about that so far. Nicky is probably their biggest asset. Manuals on the website are great, I wish they all had that. I just hope the Silent Diving guys keep the good service going ... .
As with some 'technical divving' and caving, it seems the egos clash easily in the wonderfull world of RBs. So far I have not found anybody who said the Prism is an outright bad unit or design. But it seems plenty of people rather not deal with the designer ... haven't really met him yet. His wife seems like a good person, thought. Met Leon only briefly, so I don't have an opinion on him yet.

Currently the Inspiration with Cochan Commander computer is the front runner. [/B]

Why the Commander? I remember seeing a Lifeguard with an O2 sensor in a T-piece hooked up to a Dolphin in Santa Monica ... that set-up would make more sense (the guy was die-hard Cochran and still preferred the AirXO2/Oxy2 combo for his SCR). I like the idea of having an additional O2 cell as well as online NDL/deco calculation. HS Explorer or VR3 with their respective RB links would be my choice for CCR.

Of course, the best instructor, unit, support doesn't do much good if you don't fill the scrubber ...

 

[fins wake]

Well, it's not too bad an idea that a GO (governmental organization) actually does some rebreather evaluation ... provided the parameters are okay, of course.

The big thing about the Inspiration is really that it has been sold in SOOOO MUCH bigger numbers than all other rebreathers combined. I like the KISS:es, the Cis-Lunars and the RB-80:s. but all in all we're talking at most 200 boxes there ... add the Biomarines in ALL their permutations and we have at most some 1 000 (maximum!) machines ... now, the Inspiration has been sold in their 4 000 - 6 000 ... that is a LOT!

Like it or leave it, the EU leads the way in rebreather design, manufacturing and sales. (Yup, the UK is very much part of the EU, folks.)

So, the CE standards (which transcend the EU) also lead the way. That's just the way it is.

Now, personally, I'd like Biomarine, Steam Machine and Jetsam to get their products CE-certified and give APD a fight for the buck. Ain't happening, though, so stop whining about sour grapes ... the Inspiration is the leader of the pack as it stands ...

ut:

K.

PS. Incidentally, much as I respect the US Navy (and I really do!), there ARE other navies in the world ... some quite good, actually ... the Inspiration had it's CE-evaluation done by a Royal Navy facility ... they do know a little bit about rebreathers there, as do the Italians and French ... DS.

 

[KentCe]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...
Why the Commander? I remember seeing a Lifeguard with an O2 sensor in a T-piece hooked up to a Dolphin in Santa Monica ... that set-up would make more sense (the guy was die-hard Cochran and still preferred the AirXO2/Oxy2 combo for his SCR). I like the idea of having an additional O2 cell as well as online NDL/deco calculation. HS Explorer or VR3 with their respective RB links would be my choice for CCR.

Good dealer/company support. I was told the VR3 doesn't have a US importer/dealer at this time. The Explorer is still rather new.
Seems to be a safe bet to start out with. Some rumor that Cochran will be adding an O2 sensor option. And can always get another computer later on. (I dive with two computers on OC now). Wow, watching two O2 monitors and two computers. Hope I have time to dodge the sharks.

Of course, the best instructor, unit, support doesn't do much good if you don't fill the scrubber ...

I know someone that did that on a very short 100' dive with a SCR. They did survive to dive another day with one mother headache. No, it wasn't me.

 

[Shas]

KentCe said

It seems that some are asserting the Navy just bought X units off the shelf and tested them.

Actually, yes thats exactly what they did - the test data that is shown on the SMI site is just that, a stock PRISM Topaz. The navy was looking for a "commercial-off-the-shelf" UBA and the PRISM wasn't the only one it looked at, although it is the only one to go right through all testing levels.

KentCe also commented

I'm sure the Prism of today doesn't look like the Prism in early 2001.

They look practically the same, but yes there have been changes - a HDD and due to customer requests (not just the navy) a cover.

The Invader has different fittings because the navy will not allow compression fittings on a UBA.

Caveseeker has hit the nail on the head with his comment

it seems the egos clash easily in the wonderfull world of RBs.

, you won't find many who'll critise the PRISM because SMI has made the performance data public, DATA is DATA. No-one else out there seems willing to share their figures, they'll just tell you they did well. They don't particularly appricate SMI making it public either because that means they have to answer customers questions why theirs is not.

Manuals on the website are great, I wish they all had that.

This one I can answer, SMI doesn't list it's manual publicly on the advice of the attorneys (this is the US) - they are therefore not encouraging secondhand purchasers to "teach" themselves.

Regarding CE marking, a lot of the testing required has already been met by the USN testing (which has included environmental testing, vibration and EMI etc etc which goes well beyond any CE specifications). Undoubtedly there will be some fee to the agency required but that is likely to be reduced in light of the data that will already exist.

CE is the ability to build to a standard, repeatably. It would appear that CE is making an effort to make those standards publicly available, (at a fee) however, if the current systems with CE are able to meet the new standards then the PRISM would meet the requirement.

 

[madmole]

But passing Navy tests is NOT relevent to sports divers and the CE reflacts that. The Prism CAN NOT pass CE is its current guise

For starters CE requires Audible warning devices so you can still fly the unit should you loose your mask or be in ZERO vis (Navy would hate the unit beeping while sneaking around an accoustic mine)

CE also requires very strict Work Of Breathing rates, which have tightened over the last few years. The Inspiration has been modified to reach these (and Martin tells me it was hard to get it to make the new Standard). The one quick breathe I had off a Prism tells me its nowhere near CE resistance standards as it was noticiably more restrictive than my yellow box (still perfectly fine as far as I was concerned (but I learnt to dive on a twin hose!!))

And when was the last time you were subject to a large EMF pulse while diving???

NAVY testing, great if you are a squady, Me I'll take a RB designed by Sports Divers for Sports divers. Currently RB take up in Europe is FAR higher than in the US, something like70% of all RB's, so for a manufacturer to ignore CE is cutting of a huge section of their potential market. APD realised this from day 1 and the result is their total domination today. Would be nice to see some competition.

You can have the fastest, best handling car in the world, but if you dont ener it into the race you cant prove it. For 70% of the RB market CE is the race entry fee. For us in Europe we dont have an option. No CE ticket means we are on a limb, with no legal sales, support etc

For once the CE CCR standards are actually pretty well thought out and relevent (Amazing for a piece of EU legislation I know), thats mainly cos the UK navy, DERA (Navy test house) and the BSAC were involved in their drafting

And isnt the US in NATO? as NATO have agreed that the CE standards apply to it as from October this year!! Now that should be interesting!!!

As usual France will ingore the rules and carry on doing it own thing. Italy will bribe someone to look the other way, The US will have a token unit that follows the rules, while the covert stuff gets done the same as ever. And of course the UK will follow it to the letter of the law, All wear bright yellow YBOD's (only CE CCR) and get wiped out on their first mission:upset: