Starting Classes Tomorrow - Advice Needed!

[Jim Lapenta]

Then they can put it around their neck if they just want to see.

We teach all of our students NOT to put their mask on their head because it is a sign of distress. And just like people giving the thumbs up when they want to say OK, it needs to be corrected.

Of course, we mention it politely.

It is not a sign of distress. Never has been. It has been falsely taught that it is. Lloyd Bridges had his mask on his forehead all the time. And like Chuck Norris, he was never in distress. A mask being torn off and shoved completely off while screaming for help is a sign of distress. A mask on ones forehead usually means the diver simply put it there while talking, getting a breath through their nose, or as I said earlier they don't care if it gets knocked off by a wave. Instructors teaching wrongly that it's a sign of distress is why this keeps giving people the idea that it is. I just tell my students that it makes it easy to lose the mask or have it damaged when it falls. They are also told that there are those who think it means they are in trouble even though it doesn't. Especially if it not accompanied by any other signs indicating a problem.

 

[azmodan50]

It is not a sign of distress. Never has been. It has been falsely taught that it is. Lloyd Bridges had his mask on his forehead all the time. And like Chuck Norris, he was never in distress. A mask being torn off and shoved completely off while screaming for help is a sign of distress. A mask on ones forehead usually means the diver simply put it there while talking, getting a breath through their nose, or as I said earlier they don't care if it gets knocked off by a wave. Instructors teaching wrongly that it's a sign of distress is why this keeps giving people the idea that it is. I just tell my students that it makes it easy to lose the mask or have it damaged when it falls. They are also told that there are those who think it means they are in trouble even though it doesn't. Especially if it not accompanied by any other signs indicating a problem.

It is what people are taught it is. Whether the actual reason is so it doesn't get knocked off but people only take it serious if you tell them it's a sign of distress or the fact that among other things, a stressed or panicked diver will remove their mask in some way, shape, or form. So like everything else, it becomes what the majority believe it to be.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's one of the silliest things I've heard as well. But there are plenty of silly things that people do and teach in scuba that makes no sense. Like wrapping a regulator hose around your neck.

And, as you said they might, "getting a breath through their nose". To me, that would be a sign of distress or panic. There is no reason to need a breath through your nose, your mouth works just fine. I'll agree that people shouldn't instantly jump into rescue mode if that is all the diver does, but it could be the first sign of things to come. Just like seeing someone underwater with their eyes as wide as can be might be a sign of panic.

 

[Yoyodyne-88]

BTW, Lloyd Bridges and Chuck Norris were both acting. And a number of things about Scuba have been improved in the 50 years since then.

Real divers in real life have real behaviors, and we'd be irresponsible not to learn and respond accordingly.

A diver who keeps their mask and mouthpiece in place can rest, breath, think rationally, and act calmly --- instead of gasping and dog-paddling to exhaustion and panic, trying to keep their head above the waves. Which instinct should we encourage?

 

[RJP]

It is not a sign of distress. Never has been. It has been falsely taught that it is.

Is MOF an absolute and universal indication that a diver is in distress? No more so than having a temperature is an absolute and universal indication that someone has pneumonia.

However, categorically saying "It is not a sign of distress. Never has been. It has been falsely taught that it is" sounds just as ridiculous as anyone who categorically says that MOF is an absolute and universal sign of distress. (Although, while there's no shortage of people in the former group... in ten years I've never met anyone in the latter.)

It's quite possible that someone either has limited experience in real-world diving situations or has simply been lucky enough to have never seen a diver in distress reject their gear upon surfacing - spitting their reg and pushing the mask up off their face. In the real world... it happens. Not universally, and not always in the same fashion. Sometimes the mask comes completely off, sometimes it ends up on their forehead, sometimes it gets pulled down around their neck.

Accordingly, I'll speak to my own experience:

Yes, 99% of the divers I've seen surface and put their MOF were fine. I only know this, because I spent 2 extra milliseconds looking for other potential signs.

However, >50% of the genuinely panicked/distressed divers I've encountered in the real world have surfaced and immediately shoved their masks up off their faces. I only knew they were panicked/distressed because I spent 2 extra milliseconds looking for other potential signs. I guess if they had trained with Jim they would know that their technique was wrong... and that they were supposed to tear their mask off completely and scream.

One of the most instructive incidents involved a victim (yeah... he became a victim) who surfaced after a successful CESA demo, fist-bumped the instructor, and settled in at the surface. A moment later, he pushed his mask up on his forehead and gazed towards shore.

One of our other students - all of whom are taught that a diver rejecting gear is one of a number of possible signs of distress - said to him "John... you ok?" This got the instructor's attention, who turned towards John just in time to see him go face-down in the water, completely non-responsive. (After the incident the instructor - and others present - stated that if he hadn't heard someone say "John... you OK?" he would have assumed John had simply put his face in the water to watch his son who was down on the platform about to do his CESA.)

Long story short; after a tow to shore, full activation of the quarry's emergency staff, an ambulance ride to one hospital, a helicopter ride to another, and a few days at the UPenn hyperbaric center John is fine... because someone had been taught that MOF was one of a number of possible signs of distress.

If the other student had been taught by someone that "MOF is not a sign of distress. Never has been. It has been falsely taught that it is" John would probably be dead right now.

Accordingly, when I see a diver surface and remove their mask I'll continue to take the 2 miliseconds necessary to look for other signs of distress. I will continue to spend the 20 seconds necessary to convey the rationale for doing so to students. I will continue to ask any diver I'm diving with - student, buddy, or otherwise - whether they are ok if I see them push their mask up on their forehead. If they say "yes" I'll simply say "be careful you don't lose your mask" and go on about my business.

Doing otherwise seems irresponsible.

 

[OliviaRose]

Oh goodness I didn't mean to set off a whole debate about this!

---------- Post added April 21st, 2015 at 11:08 AM ----------

I will not take off my mask ever again I promise! LOL

---------- Post added April 21st, 2015 at 11:10 AM ----------

Just to beg the question, what do you do with it when on shore, sides of pools, boats, etc? I would like not to fall on my face because I'm wearing a possibly foggy mask/walking on wet tiles... Put it on your neck I am guessing?

 

[RJP]

Oh goodness I didn't mean to set off a whole debate about this!

Someone had to... it's been nearly a week since the last one!

 

[OliviaRose]

Just FYI, your 3mm may not be enough for the water in Hawaii this summer. You said you get cold easily and the water there tops out around 80F, I think, at the warmest time of year, and that depends on exactly where you go. Other places never get that warm. And I think that's surface temperature. At recreational depths, it can be a couple of degrees cooler, I think.

Since you said you get cold easily, if it's not too late, and if your 3mm suit is brand new, you might even consider trying to exchange it for a 5mm. At your size, the weight difference between the two (for airline travel purposes) is pretty negligible.

Thanks! I am going to Oahu, Kaui, Maui, and Hawaii. Where are the good spots at? I'd like to do a night dive to see the mantas off Maui but am still planning the dive trips. \

Unfortunately, my fiancé (husband by then!) is not ready to do dive certification. He is still new to the water and has had a couple near-drowning experiences while swimming in the past that have given him some anxiety. We went to the Virgin Islands in January and he did very well snorkeling and actually went out on a couple long swims with me. He did great and wants to try diving, like I did years ago, with an instructor. I'd love for him to get certified but I recognize that it is not safe to pressure someone into it. Anyways, I found this shop on Maui called Kona Honu Divers and they do charters where he could snorkel with others while I dive - has anyone heard of this spot?

---------- Post added April 21st, 2015 at 11:28 AM ----------

Just as a side note, as any good fiancé should be, he is super supportive of my diving endeavors and I think perhaps a bit upset that he doesn't have the swimming ability or comfort-factor in the water yet (personally, I think it's great that he is able to recognize this).

---------- Post added April 21st, 2015 at 11:34 AM ----------

Also, just wondering if this is even possible, but could I hire a private instructor to take him and I out for a shallow "try scuba" sort of dive? I will have completed my open water dives so I'm thinking they could focus on him and I'd just come along as a buddy? Is it safe to go out in groups of three?

 

[stuartv]

Thanks! I am going to Oahu, Kaui, Maui, and Hawaii. Where are the good spots at? I'd like to do a night dive to see the mantas off Maui but am still planning the dive trips.
---------- Post added April 21st, 2015 at 11:34 AM ----------

Also, just wondering if this is even possible, but could I hire a private instructor to take him and I out for a shallow "try scuba" sort of dive? I will have completed my open water dives so I'm thinking they could focus on him and I'd just come along as a buddy? Is it safe to go out in groups of three?

You're new. I think anywhere a dive charter takes you will be pretty good.

What you're asking about is called a DSD or Discover Scuba Dive. My fiancée and I did one together on Maui 3 years ago. We went with Maui Diving.

Scuba Dive Maui,snorkel and boat dive Maui Hawaii

They took us out and we snorkeled while everyone else did their first dive. Then the boat moved to a different spot and we did our Discovery dive with an instructor. It was awesome. That was when my scuba hook was set. It seems like pretty much all shops offer some type of DSD. In our case, it was the two of us, two additional divers who had just gotten certified at a resort and wanted to do the DSD because they weren't yet comfortable going on their own, and the Instructor. So, 5, total, in our group. The Instructor gave us a 30 minute lecture on the boat and covered a few basics. Then, as soon as we got in the water, each person had to do a few basic skills like clearing our mask. Then we descended and proceeded with our dive.

I dove on Oahu last month. I went with Hawaiian Diving Adventures and they were awesome.

Hawaiian Diving Adventures - Home

I haven't been out with them, but also on Oahu is Kaimana Divers. The owner, Gabe Scotti is a member here (scottitheduck, I think). Gabe and his operation also get rave reviews. A friend/instructor of mine here went out with Kaimana a couple of weeks ago and he said good things about them, too.

Scuba Diving Oahu with Kaimana Divers | Dive Oahu, Honolulu, Waikiki

 

[RJP]

I'd suggest, personally, that you don't bother diving on Oahu. It's "eh" at best... especially if you'll be on Maui and Hawaii.

No idea what "spot" you'd be going to with Kona-Honu... but the Kona area is great.

Where will you be in Maui? If near Lahaina, be sure to do a Lanai day-trip. Trilogy does one with dive and snorkel. Lanai diving is great, esp Cathedrals I and II.

Jealous.

 

[TSandM]

There is a lot of very pleasant diving on Maui, and a plethora of dive shops. If you are staying in the Kihei area, I'd recommend B&B Scuba -- they are really good with beginners. But you also might want to post about getting a buddy, or hire a DM for a day of shore diving. Shaka Doug here on ScubaBoard has an excellent reputation for leading fun shore dives. My favorite shore dive on Maui is the Mala Pier in Lahaina -- Shaka Doug doesn't go up there, but any number of dive shops could provide you with a DM to do that dive. It's shallow and pretty easy, but it has fabulous structure and a TON of critters.