Standardized hand signals for numbers?

[Blackwood]

I thought you said, "hand rotated 90Ž°?" If there's a different side of the hand facing you, you've rotated the hand 90Ž° and changed the palm orientation. Which is it and which direction does the hand rotate?

You rotate it the only way your body physically allows you to

Unless you have some insane joints, I bet you can't face your right palm towards you and rotate your hand 90Ž° clockwise (or left / counterclockwise).

 

[SparticleBrane]

I thought you said, "hand rotated 90Ž°?" If there's a different side of the hand facing you, you've rotated the hand 90Ž° and changed the palm orientation. Which is it and which direction does the hand rotate?

Walter -- read this. It is exactly what I was discussing earlier.

 

[Zieg]

Walter, Walter, Walter, tsk, tsk, tsk.....

Again you just don't get it. The ASL system for numbers 1 thru 0, that you propose, uses a different sign for each number. A system that will work no matter what direction you hold the fingers. You know, "What number was that? Three? Eight? I couldn't tell if you moved you hand very much."

Besides:

Probably something like "ASL would be too complicated for cave usage".

SOME of those cave divers have trouble counting to five on one hand, let alone anything above 10 because unlike some of us WWW's, who wear full-foot open-toed fins, they can't see their toes.

 

[Pitchblack]

We signal like this;

''time out'' signal = half of the airsupply left
and with one hand signaling either closed or open fist with all five fingers out = 50 bar
and single fingers meaning 10 bars each.

So for me if asked about airsupply and having 170 bars left i'd signal
'time out' for 150bars and then two fingers up for 150+20 = 170 bars.

 

[Walter]

Seems that sign languages such as ASL are not international.

Which may explain why it's called American Sign Language and not International Sign Language.

And even American Sign Language and British Sign Language have different numbering systems.

While American is very closely related to English, American Sign Language is much more closely related to French Sign Language.

Since there does not seems to a generally used international sign language I see it making more sense to define a scuba signals not based on one groups sign language (such as ASL) but on what makes the most sense in the environment.

ASL's numbering system makes sense to me. Other like flashing groups of 5 fingers or twisting their hand this way or that. As long as we understand each other on a particular dive, it doesn't matter what system we use on that dive. Tell me before the dive you'll be using the cave system and go very slowly, I'll try to follow what you're saying. I'll be using ASL.

You rotate it the only way your body physically allows you to

I can rotate it either way, but neither is comfortable, both directions put strain on my wrist. If I also change palm orientation, rotating it toward my body is easier, but I can also point my hand away from my body as well. It's much easier to keep palm orientation the same and not rotate my hand at all.

Walter -- read this. It is exactly what I was discussing earlier.

Thanks, but I've understood the caver numbering system for years. I was merely pointing out to Blackwood that explaining it is not as simple as he thought. It even has a twist that he may not even be consciously aware he's making. Both systems are easily taught through demonstration.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Hold the phone.

ASL isn a very conceptual language. It probably relates closer to fresh than anything else, but it is a totally different concept than most western languages. "I picked and apple, bit into it and it was good" is failry simple and linear in English but is much more complex in ASL where you'd start with a tree and sort of work from there in a much less linear fashion.

Time concepts in particular are much different in ASL than in English and convenying them relys heavily on position and movement of the hands.

In short, you would not be talking about ASL at all but rather signed English using ASL signs in a very English structure and format.

And again, as pointed out above, it is not universal in nature.

Plus you referenced the I love you sign. I dive in three dimensions and in currents so do you, so was that "I love you" (vertically oriented and stationary) or "airplane" horizontal and moving? The greater range of signs possible in ASL leads to a much greater need for precision and unless you can train all the divers involved to the neccesary level, you won't get precision, just confusion.

If we want a standard set of dive related signs for all divers, we need to keep it simple. Unlike ASL, the basic cave signs have proven to be just that, are fairly inuitive and easy to learn, and work well with a linear construction.

Again you just don't get it. The ASL system for numbers 1 thru 0, that you propose, uses a different sign for each number. A system that will work no matter what direction you hold the fingers. You know, "What number was that? Three? Eight? I couldn't tell if you moved you hand very much."

Then just flash me the basic cave sign for "?" and I'll repeat it.

 

[Blackwood]

I can rotate it either way, but neither is comfortable, both directions put strain on my wrist. If I also change palm orientation, rotating it toward my body is easier, but I can also point my hand away from my body as well. It's much easier to keep palm orientation the same and not rotate my hand at all.

Weird. Palm down or in, I can't rotate my hand away from my body at all, whereas rotating towards my body is entirely natural.

Both systems are easily taught through demonstration.

Fair enough. And both systems are better than "flashing 5s" or any which require two hands.

 

[boulderjohn]

It would be very nice if things were standarized, but this thread shows in part why it is unlikely to happen.

I know and like the vertical/horizontal finger system, and I use it whenever I am with the people I dive with who know it and use it. (Visualize one hand motion, fingers vertical.)

I have seen or heard of every other system mentioned in this thread, and more.

When I talk with students, I just tell them there is no standard system, and I tell them to make sure they know what will be used by the people they are diving with before they get in the water.

By the way, I showed my students the vertical/horizontal finger system this past weekend. It took me about 10 seconds to explain it, and we used it with no confusion the rest of the weekend.

 

[Gombessa]

Because the other option is a W.

Actually, it looks like the intuitive progression for three (index, middle, ring finger up, no thumb) conflicts with "six." That, along with the "nine-OK" and "ten-thumbs" seems like a bit of a kludge with plenty of opportunity for confusion. In that sense, it really doesn't seem like an alternative system without this confusion built-in is reinventing the wheel.

If you and your buddies are used to it and can use it without a "Who's on First" situation, that's great. But IMO these issues make it far from ideal compared to the alternatives.

 

[mikemill]

I use the flashing 5s and haven't ran into any problems with it. Mostly intuitive (got a weird look while the other person figured out what I meant after the first flash [we forgot to go over it on land]), only requires one hand, and can be done without worrying about orientation (I've done it while hanging upside after taking a shot)

The reality is that as long as you go over your signals before the dive it really doesn't matter what you do. Just this last week I was doing a night dive with my brother (who hadn't done one yet) and another person that I hadn't done a night dive with before. None of us could remember exactly what the distress signal with the light was so we made one up and agreed on it. If we had added another person we'd have gone over the signals again to make sure we were on the same page.