Standardized hand signals for numbers?

[nilsdiver]

I use the flashing 5s and haven't ran into any problems with it. Mostly intuitive (got a weird look while the other person figured out what I meant after the first flash [we forgot to go over it on land]), only requires one hand, and can be done without worrying about orientation (I've done it while hanging upside after taking a shot)

I find that I use numbers under water for things other then tank pressure mostly. Most often for compass directions (which are always 3 digits), depth, time, species counts... etc. I don't think flashing fives translates well to things other then psi.

 

[mikemill]

And that is great for you if you have the need. I'm sure that the cave divers have a need for a more complex system and the current system works for their needs. I'd venture that the majority of divers really don't need a complex communication system.

 

[The Kraken]

Once again, let us not get into an argument about which system is better or which one is lesser, let us concern ourselves about getting a system that is standardized within our hobby/sport.

the K

 

[mikemill]

Trying to standardize it for the entire diving community is looking at too large of a group IMO. Your once a year resort divers have different needs (pressure and boat egress direction) then technical divers (can't say exactly as I'm not one but I'd imagine detailed information like depth, compass direction, gas mix, deco time, etc).

For the first group I'd want to keep everything as close to intuitive and obvious as possible. Things like the flashing fives, using both hands, etc. For the second group I'd want to be able to convey that information quickly and clearly. Due to the amount of training needed having a more complex system is acceptable.

 

[The Kraken]

You make a good point, Mike, but let us at least give it a try for the dedicated diving community.

the K

 

[mikemill]

That I can agree with

BTW the next time I'm out I'm gonna try the cave diving number style.

 

[Walter]

ASL isn a very conceptual language.

Are you saying "is" or "isn't?" It is a very conceptual language which is what makes it so easy to learn.

It probably relates closer to fresh than anything else

I have no idea what you meant to say.

but it is a totally different concept than most western languages.

Languages differ. This is not news.

"I picked and apple, bit into it and it was good" is failry simple and linear in English but is much more complex in ASL where you'd start with a tree and sort of work from there in a much less linear fashion.

Not true at all. There are basic differences and lots of things cluttering English and some other languages, articles for example, are missing. No "the" "a" "an" which serve no real purpose but are required in English are found in ASL. To say you picked an apple, took a bite and found it delicious would not require starting with the tree, but with the apple. Apple, picked, ate, delicious. ASL is much simpler than English.

Time concepts in particular are much different in ASL than in English and convenying them relys heavily on position and movement of the hands.

Very different. English uses past, present and future tenses. Some are regular such as dive, dived, will dive, while others are irregular such as drive, drove, will drive. ASL is much simpler. If it's in the past or future, set the time, then use sign in the present. Much easier than English.

In short, you would not be talking about ASL at all but rather signed English using ASL signs in a very English structure and format.

Why the hell would anybody do that to themselves. Signed English is a nightmare. ASL is easy to use.

And again, as pointed out above, it is not universal in nature.

No language is.

Plus you referenced the I love you sign. I dive in three dimensions and in currents so do you, so was that "I love you" (vertically oriented and stationary) or "airplane" horizontal and moving?

Moving short and repeated or long and flowing? Did you mean airplane or flying?

The greater range of signs possible in ASL leads to a much greater need for precision and unless you can train all the divers involved to the neccesary level, you won't get precision, just confusion.

So, you believe unless you are reasonably fluent in a language, trying to comunicate complex concepts in that language can cause confusion? If so, I agree. I think it would be wonderful if all divers would learn ASL. If they did, communication would be much clearer. You and I both know that isn't going to happen. I'm not advocating it. On the other hand, learning 0 - 9 (even if you use W for 3 - I'll figure it out) is extremely easy and less confusing than the caver reinvention.

If we want a standard set of dive related signs for all divers, we need to keep it simple. Unlike ASL, the basic cave signs have proven to be just that, are fairly inuitive and easy to learn, and work well with a linear construction.

ASL is intuitive, very easy to learn and works well with a linear thought process.

Then just flash me the basic cave sign for "?" and I'll repeat it.

The problem with that is he doesn't realize you were trying to communicate 3, he thought you said 8 and neither of you know there was a miscommunication.

It would be very nice if things were standarized, but this thread shows in part why it is unlikely to happen.

BINGO. It isn't going to happen. If the cavers had not reinvented the wheel, it would have been possible. It's now too late because to many divers have become emotionally invested in "their" system. It doesn't really matter, while the system is far from ideal, it works quite well. This is really a very minor issue.

Once again, let us not get into an argument about which system is better or which one is lesser, let us concern ourselves about getting a system that is standardized within our hobby/sport.

A nice concept, but it's not going to happen. Had cavers read the US Navy Dive Manual instead of inventing their own system, it would have been possible. I doubt they'll ever abandon it because of the emotional tie.

 

[scubadude79]

1 through 5 - hold that many digits with the fingers pointing upwards.

6 through 9 - extend 5 + digits horizontally - that is, for the number 9, take the 4 fingers you would use to signify 4 but hold them horizontally.

I like that! I will integrate it with my forearm touch for thousands.
I will flash the digits for thousands, touch, then flash for hundreds.

Thanks!

 

[Hover-Stop]

"I picked and apple, bit into it and it was good" is failry simple and linear in English but is much more complex in ASL where you'd start with a tree and sort of work from there in a much less linear fashion.

when was the last time you had to tell your buddy that you bit into an apple, etc?

we're talking about number signals. if you're a cave diver, use the cave system. if you're a tech/wreck/rec/other, use whatever signals your buddy understands and iron it out during your pre-dive brief.

or you can just do as i do.....

*check gauge hand sign*
*look at gauge"
*ok* or *thumb up* or *time to turn back* (circle motion)

I don't need to know exactly how much air you have.

 

[Blackwood]

Languages differ. This is not news.

If the cavers had not reinvented the wheel, it would have been possible.

Stop hitting yourself.

I doubt they'll ever abandon it because of the emotional tie.

Paradigms shift. I imagine if a communication system that the cave community widely found to be better was introduced, they'd be open to it. But for now, why fix what ain't broke with something that doesn't bring any benefits and has the same failings?