DA Aquamaster:
ASL isn a very conceptual language.
Are you saying "is" or "isn't?" It
is a very conceptual language which is what makes it so easy to learn.
DA Aquamaster:
It probably relates closer to fresh than anything else
I have no idea what you meant to say.
DA Aquamaster:
but it is a totally different concept than most western languages.
Languages differ. This is not news.
DA Aquamaster:
"I picked and apple, bit into it and it was good" is failry simple and linear in English but is much more complex in ASL where you'd start with a tree and sort of work from there in a much less linear fashion.
Not true at all. There are basic differences and lots of things cluttering English and some other languages, articles for example, are missing. No "the" "a" "an" which serve no real purpose but are required in English are found in ASL. To say you picked an apple, took a bite and found it delicious would not require starting with the tree, but with the apple. Apple, picked, ate, delicious. ASL is much simpler than English.
DA Aquamaster:
Time concepts in particular are much different in ASL than in English and convenying them relys heavily on position and movement of the hands.
Very different. English uses past, present and future tenses. Some are regular such as dive, dived, will dive, while others are irregular such as drive, drove, will drive. ASL is much simpler. If it's in the past or future, set the time, then use sign in the present.
Much easier than English.
DA Aquamaster:
In short, you would not be talking about ASL at all but rather signed English using ASL signs in a very English structure and format.
Why the hell would anybody do that to themselves. Signed English is a nightmare. ASL is easy to use.
DA Aquamaster:
And again, as pointed out above, it is not universal in nature.
No language is.
DA Aquamaster:
Plus you referenced the I love you sign. I dive in three dimensions and in currents so do you, so was that "I love you" (vertically oriented and stationary) or "airplane" horizontal and moving?
Moving short and repeated or long and flowing? Did you mean airplane or flying?
DA Aquamaster:
The greater range of signs possible in ASL leads to a much greater need for precision and unless you can train all the divers involved to the neccesary level, you won't get precision, just confusion.
So, you believe unless you are reasonably fluent in a language, trying to comunicate complex concepts in that language can cause confusion? If so, I agree. I think it would be wonderful if all divers would learn ASL. If they did, communication would be much clearer. You and I both know that isn't going to happen. I'm not advocating it. On the other hand, learning 0 - 9 (even if you use W for 3 - I'll figure it out) is extremely easy and less confusing than the caver reinvention.
DA Aquamaster:
If we want a standard set of dive related signs for all divers, we need to keep it simple. Unlike ASL, the basic cave signs have proven to be just that, are fairly inuitive and easy to learn, and work well with a linear construction.
ASL is intuitive, very easy to learn and works well with a linear thought process.
DA Aquamaster:
Then just flash me the basic cave sign for "?" and I'll repeat it.
The problem with that is he doesn't realize you were trying to communicate 3, he thought you said 8 and neither of you know there was a miscommunication.
boulderjohn:
It would be very nice if things were standarized, but this thread shows in part why it is unlikely to happen.
BINGO. It isn't going to happen. If the cavers had not reinvented the wheel, it would have been possible. It's now too late because to many divers have become emotionally invested in "their" system. It doesn't really matter, while the system is far from ideal, it works quite well. This is really a very minor issue.
The Kraken:
Once again, let us not get into an argument about which system is better or which one is lesser, let us concern ourselves about getting a system that is standardized within our hobby/sport.
A nice concept, but it's not going to happen. Had cavers read the US Navy Dive Manual instead of inventing their own system, it would have been possible. I doubt they'll ever abandon it because of the emotional tie.