Stage/deco reg configuration

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NorthWoodsDiver

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As I creep into more technical diving I find myself constantly analyzing equipment configuration. Now I am looking at what I just picked up for my 100% O2 bottle and am already questioning my decision. Should deco and stage gas supplies have longer hoses or 2 second stages in case a fellow diver needs more gas, if so than planning deco gas on thirds would also be necessary I would think. In the cave class we touched on this as we dove with stages as halves minus 200 psi under the belief that your stage is your stage and your back gas is your reserve but in a shallow warm cave v.s. a deep cold wreck I could see your deco gas becoming a different story. If you have X amount of deco obligation on 40% and X amount on 100% but your "buddy" for what ever reason has lost use of one of his bottles. Suddenly you need enough gas for 2 divers to complete deco.

Maybe this isn't a problem and maybe I am reading to far into this but my brain tells me I should have more than double the gas required to do the required deco for the controlling diver. please advise
 
Without going into too much detail: you can share deco gas in case of lost gas or deco out on backgas. I generally have 40" hoses on my stages/deco bottles as it routes nicely when deployed.
 
In my class we were taught to plan 1/2 use for deco bottles. Use a 40" hose for the regs with a single 2nd stage. A lot of people advocate using a cheaper or lower performance reg for deco bottles. I never understood why. If you are doing any decent bottom times you will most likely be spending more time on your deco regs than back gas regs. All of my regs, as well as those of the guys I dive with regularily are as good as our back gas regs. In the event of a failure on a back gas reg. Any of the deco or regs can be swapped in and will breathe just as well.
 
well that concurs with the current system I am putting into action. I to am planning on using a 40" hose and planning for half minus 200 psi (example on a 300 psi tank would be using 1300). The regulators debate is one that always had me thinking and I made the decision to use all identical regs for everything except my deco regs for use over 40% are all piston type. The two reasons pointed out to me is that the diaphragm and O2 dont get along so well and your deco regs are used in much shallowed depths. I settled on MK17 first stages and S600 seconds for everything up to 40% (stages, backgas, sidemount, bailout, etc) and my new setup will have a mk2 and a dive rite RG2015 second for use on 100%.

I asked because I have seen 2 divers on a single 80 using 7ft hoses for deco on 100%. I didn't know how common that was. I suppose that may have been for unplanned deco or extended deco or something I am not familiar with.
 
In my class we were taught to plan 1/2 use for deco bottles. Use a 40" hose for the regs with a single 2nd stage. A lot of people advocate using a cheaper or lower performance reg for deco bottles. I never understood why. If you are doing any decent bottom times you will most likely be spending more time on your deco regs than back gas regs. All of my regs, as well as those of the guys I dive with regularily are as good as our back gas regs. In the event of a failure on a back gas reg. Any of the deco or regs can be swapped in and will breathe just as well.
I also plan to carry twice the amount of each deco gas that I anticipate needing. Thirds is a little conservative and thirds will still not protect you from the loss of the gas through reg failure, burst disc failure, neck o-ring failure, detaching and losing the bottle, etc.

However I also do contingency planning to ensure that I can safely complete deco with the loss of any one deco gas. On a single deco gas dive, this means ensuring you have enough back gas reserve to complete the longer deco required on back gas only. If a 1/3rd backgas reserve won't cover it, it becomes by default a 2 deco gas dive with contingency plans for the loss of either of the deco gasses, while again ensuring the reserve backgas is adequate to cover either deco schedule. If all I have is one deco gas, for example, 50%, and the 1/3 rd back gas reserve is inadequate for the lost gas contingency, I'll take along another bottle of 50%. In this case 2 AL40's are safer than a single AL 80 as the issue is not just volume but rather redundancy.

This type of contingency planning also means you will have the option to hand off one of your deco bottles to an out of gas buddy - which will leave you on one of your lost gas contingency deco schedules. But on the other hand, if your buddy is also planning his gas properly, he would need to have experienced multiple failures before he even needs to consider coming to you for deco gas. If your buddy is not doing proper contingency planning, you need to find a new buddy.

From that perspective a 7' hose on a deco bottle makes no sense. If on some rare occasion you need to donate gas from a slung bottle, just hand it off.

Deco reg wise, the idea of using "low performance" flow by piston regs is not an issue of performance but rather an issue of the design being very simple, very reliable and very O2 freindly in having no high pressue spaces past the HP seat with no dynamic o-rings exposed to high pressure O2. Performance is only an issue in that it is not an issue as by definition a high percentage O2 reg is going to be used 70' and shallower.

The other argument you see in favor of a flow by piston deco reg is that they are fairly flood freindly so that in the event of a reg failure, you could theoretically swap one to another tank. Diaphragm regs in contrast are less tolerant of having incompressible fluids in them when they are pressurized. Personally, I think that argument is pretty useless as swapping regs is not something that you need to do if you did the gas planning properly. It is also a lot harder to actually do than it sounds, especially if you add in current, low vsibility, etc. It is also not something you can practice as the regs have to be taken apart, dried and cleaned each time they are flooded. Plus, if you are swapping areg at depth, you run the risk of dorking up your whole team's gas plan and/or deco schedule while you screw with swapping a reg.

However there is a derivative of this argument that is valid. Most divers dive with the deco bottle turned off and if the purge button gets depressed during descent you could both purge the reg and then flood the first stage as you descend deeper and force water back into the hose and first stage. This will never happen with a back gas reg, but is a possiblity with a deco or stage bottle reg. I have also on one ocsasion had a deco bottle depressurize and have the DIN connection come loose a turn during the dive, flooding the reg from the inlet end of the reg. In that regard, a flow by piston reg also makes a lot of sense on a deco bottle as flooded or not, it will still work reliably with no risk of a ruptured diaphragm.

In recognition that I spend as much or more time on a deep dive breathing off a deco reg as I do my back gas regs, I use a high performance adjustable second stage (G250) to ensure that I get low inhalation efforts even with the unbalanced flow by piston first stage.

On a stage bottle that may be used as a 130' deco bottle, for travel gas or for bottom gas, I'll use a high performance first stage as well as a high performance second stage. For a stage bottle used for bottom gas you want performance equal to your back gas regs and it makes sense to have a stage bottle reg that can do whatever you may need to demand of it.

Consequently, I will use Mk 17 G250's for back gas and sometimes for a stage bottle, although I prefer to use a Mk 9 G250 on the stage bottle as the Mk 9 is both a high performance balanced first stage (a Mk 10 with fixed rather than swivel cap), very simple in design and much more flood freindly than a diaphragm design.
 
The planning for gas requirements is very subjective to your risk assessment. You could plan all your gas requirements on a thirds rule or a half rule. My suggestion would be to be overly conservative. In the overhead environment back gas on a third and deco on a third is not a bad approach as that way you will have plenty in reserve. You do need to carry that gas though!! In any case base it on a conservative mind set.

The Deco regs should be of a good performance quality. I recommend to have the same regs as your back gas. One reason is for logistics of spare parts and the other is in an emergency where you may need to switch out a reg from one gas source to another you will know the reg will perform at that spot in the dive.. The hoses should be of a comfortable length to run them from the cylinder to your mouth. You will be or could be sitting there breathing on this thing for a good period of time so you want to be comfortable and breathing easy.
 
A lot of people advocate using a cheaper or lower performance reg for deco bottles. I never understood why. If you are doing any decent bottom times you will most likely be spending more time on your deco regs than back gas regs.

I'm not advocating this. In fact, my O2 regs are top of the line regs. But the reasoning I've heard is you're only going to breathe those regs at 20' so they don't have to have the performance of the regs you're taking to 200'.


NWD, one 2nd stage is all most divers carry. In the event of a failure, you should plan on having enough back gas to deco on. If you want to expedite your exit to the surface with a failed deco bottle, you can share the working deco bottle by switching between deco gas and back gas every 5 minutes with your buddy. Or you can buddy breathe through the deco (although this could get a little old). I've never seen anyone using a 7' hose other than on back or side mount bottles. It would be interesting to know their reasoning. FWIW, I always plan 1/3s on stage bottles and carry 1.5 times the deco gas I'll need (remember I have enough gas in my main bottles to deco on that if needed.)
 
My suggestion would be to be overly conservative. In the overhead environment back gas on a third and deco on a third is not a bad approach as that way you will have plenty in reserve. You do need to carry that gas though!! In any case base it on a conservative mind set.

.


I agree with a conservative approach,I have never known anybody to die in an overhead environment from having too much gas. I am not a fan of the "half minus 200 (or plus 200)" approach alluded to in the beginning of this thread,there is an assumption that is implicit here which I don't think leads to conservative gas management.
 
I'm not advocating this. In fact, my O2 regs are top of the line regs. But the reasoning I've heard is you're only going to breathe those regs at 20' so they don't have to have the performance of the regs you're taking to 200'.
I've heard this rationale,but I've seen people turn blue by trying to drink a Wendy's Frosty with a straw. I will use an unbalanced piston regulator,but it generally is going to deliver gas very well ie like the SP MK2

. FWIW, I always plan 1/3s on stage bottles and carry 1.5 times the deco gas I'll need (remember I have enough gas in my main bottles to deco on that if needed.)

Agree 100%
 
FWIW, I always plan 1/3s on stage bottles and carry 1.5 times the deco gas I'll need (remember I have enough gas in my main bottles to deco on that if needed.)
Divers may want to apporach what they do in open water differently than in a cave environment.

For example, in the mid atlantic/north atlantic coastal area, long deco on back gas is not a great idea as the weather can change very quickly, so carrying 1.5 times the gas needed for deco with the redundant gas being in the back gas reserve (with a much longer deco obligation) may not be ideal.

In an offshore situation, having 2 deco gasses with enough of each gas to complete the entire deco (with back gas used as appropriate to replace lower percentage deco gasses) makes more sense as it gets you out of the water faster. And again, even if only one deco gas is used, carrying twice the gas needed and splitting it between two 40's may make more sense than putting it all in one 80 to ensure you do not end up on a long back gas only deco schedule.

Similarly, planning using 1/3rds for a stage makes sense in a cave, but in open water it may make more sense to use the whole thing from descent until it's empty, then complete the bottom gas portion of the dive on your back gas, keeping 1/3rd of the total (backgas plus stage) in reserve in the back gas tanks. It keeps things simpler and reduces gas switches in a situation where you only use one stage and don't drop the stage during the dive. And it keeps you from placing yourself in a situaion where part of the exit or reserve gas is in a tank accessible by only one regulator. This eliminates the need to consider swapping regs underwater to access needed gas - something that may work in a cave, but is much less practical offshore.

A stage with travel/deco gas is obviously a different story.

In short, whether a particular approach to gas management is optimum or not changes with the environment you are in.
 

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