SSI and turning off air?

[divewabbit]

wake up stop think react that is a basic for pool only

 

[Conchchowder]

I was certified in 1976 by PADI. Not only was our air turned off in the pool, it was done on our open water dive. I wasn't informed on either occasion as if I were to run out of air in an emergency situation, I wasn't going to be told that I was about to have an out-of-air emergency.

"The idea of early diver training was simple: Before you could call yourself a diver, you had to prove you had what it takes. And what it took was surviving training."

A Short History of Diver Travining

I was taught, time and time again, to stay close to my buddy, to signal for out of air and how to do a ditch and don and a safe ascent.

At 15 years-old I had the confidence to handle any emergency that could come my way, thanks to "harassment".

I can remember doing my ditch-and-don at Pennekamp in 25 feet of water, going to the surface and going back down to put on my gear.

There is a great thread here on the dumbing-down of certification courses.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/q-...ation-courses-padi-what-have-we-missed-2.html

When training for real-life emergencies, and seeing if a student has the mental capability to handle a life-threatening emergency gets boos from divers, then we have a serious problem on our hands.

Diving has ceased to be a sport with wher e serious training in methods, physics (can you repeat all of the gas-laws and do a dive plan?), and instilling automatic responses to crisis situations...now, it is a three-day distraction.

I say DON'T tell 'em their air is going to be shut off and see how they react. If they freak, kick 'em to the curb. You may save their life though you may have a pi$$ed-off customer.

 

[evac93rd]

I was certified by PADI in August of 2008. As part of our pool training we had our air turned off so we could experience what an "out of air" emergency felt like. We were briefed on the surface prior to this and after we made the "cut-throat" signal our air was turned back on. We then signaled OK and training proceeded to the next student.

The only difference I can see between PADI and SSI is that we did our CESA at a different time, not immediately following the simulated "out of air" emergency. I must say I don't see the controversy here?? Am I missing something?

 

[knight diver]

As a ssi instructor I have had the pleasure of teaching my students the out of air drill. I teach this skill after all other skills have been learned and practiced. I also face the student while we are both kneeling on the bottom of a 12' pool so that they are stable and so that I can gage their reaction by looking them directly in the eyes. I then signal asking are you OK? then I ask are you OK to go up? after receiving a affirmative answer to both these questions. I then shut off the students air supply, all the while looking into their eyes for signs of distress.. I have them breath down their regs until they are out of air and signal as such with a full slash across the throat with their hand. I then assist the student in leaving their knees and proceed in ascending to the surface while turning on their air as they ascend making note that they should have a chin up attitude and be blowing bubbles.I maintain contact with them at all times. Once they reach the surface I have them inflate their BC by using the bobbing method.I remind them at this time that they are out of air and as such they must orally inflate their BC. I do not have them ditch their weight belt. I also stress that to drop their weights is to be a last ditch effort, one that may save their life but could also lead to severe complications. I throughly brief each diver on the surface before attempting this exercise.and I do not perform this in open waters. Michigan's waters are not conducive to very good viz !!!!!

Chris SSI instructor

 

[Br44]

In another thread on this board I read a post that stated a SSI instructor turned off the students air. This was said to been done in a pool, to practice an out of air ascent from the bottom of the pool. I am not making any statments as to this being a bad idea or a good idea. My question pertains to the SSI S&P and turning off a students air. I am not familar with SSI and would like to know what they say, if anything about doing this. I know that in the past this would be done all the time, then most agencies made a policy about it.

im not cert with ssi but i would like to put in my 2 cents worth.......... i was cert with PADI and i did have my air turned off in the pool. but i did not do any accent or anything with it....... he just wanted to show me what its like to run out of air.


when i got into my open water dive, he had me take my reg out of my mouth and go up. i blew little bubbles all the way and when i reached the surface, i inflated my bc with my mouth.

(one time i had a "friend" turn my air off in the middle of a dive as a joke. i almost got tangled in kelp on my way up.)

 

[JMcD]

hijack/

Remember, the air volume in your lungs is doubling on ascent for every 33 feet of depth. You're risking an expansive lung injury if you're breathing in, or holding your breath.

Dpaustex, this is not quite correct. You are correct in stating that in an accent from 33 ft to the surface the volume of air in your lungs will double. This is not correct as you go deeper.

When you descend from the surface (1 ATM) to 33 ft (2 ATM) the pressure doubles and the volume of gas will decrease by 50%. The reverse is true when you accent.
However when you descend from 33 ft (2 ATM) the pressure does not double again until 132 ft (4 ATM).

If you are at 132 FT you can accent to 33 ft before the pressure is reduced by half and the volume doubles.

This is why so much emphasis is put on the first 33 ft of decent ans the last 33 ft of assent. This is where the most pressure change occurs.

You are 100% correct in stating that holding your breath at any time during an accent puts you at risk of a over expansion injury.

Happy and Safe Diving
Alan

Hi all,

Just to clarify. dpaustex, I agree with Alan that the your statement of "doubling on ascent for every 33 feet of depth" isn't entirely correct. And as Alan has pointed, it would be correct from 33 feet to the surface. However, just so there is no confusion, I believe Alan intended to say 99 feet and not 132. Since no-one else corrected it, I was a bit concerned that you may have had some confusion working it out.

At the surface - 1 Atmosphere (14.7psi) of pressure from the earth's atmosphere
33' 2 atmospheres
66' 3 atmospheres
99' 4 atmospheres
132' 5 atmospheres

sooo... a volume of air taken at 99 feet (4atm) would indeed double in volume when the pressure was reduced by half (to 2atm) which would occur when a diver reached 33 feet.... and then double again (4 times the original 99 foot volume) in the last 33 feet to the surface when the pressure from 2 atmospheres decreases in half again to the 1 atmiosphere at the surface.... clear as mud?

/hijack

now back to your originally scheduled discussion


I believe shutting off a students air under controlled conditions so they know what will happen and what it might feel like to have no air is a positive training experience that can be easily managed. I have never had a concern from a student with just doing this. I've done it in very shallow water where a student could easily have reached the surface by standing up. I found it valuable when I took my OW as it simply answered an obvious question that I had no idea at the time what the sensation might be or how the equipment would "feel".

Combining with the EBA as is outlined by SSI... I believe it can be safe, but does have elements that increase the complexity and requires clear direction and controls by the instructor.

The subtle change in SSI documentation Bryan has pointed out does seem to me to add some confusion. If I read it again - it seems it is required, but the conditions have to be perfect... soooo what does that mean exactly?...

I believe a CESA is critical to proper training, teaching how to ditch weight is also critical to proper training when one considers the number of diving fatalities that occur on the surface - but the timing of ditching... do I ditch weight at 120 feet, or if I think I'm not going to make it doing a CESA, or when I reach the surface, at the surface if I'm struggling to orally inflate... or ... (add your proposal here) that does add confusion and turns this thread into a do-you-ditch-or-not thread --- not something that we need another of on SB I don't think.

I believe the OP has been answered pretty fully SSI's view of shutting off air... good discussion.

 

[Diveralan]

Hi JMcD,

Thank you for catching my mistake. I can't believe I did that. Just shows you need to proof read before hitting post. Thanks again.

hijack/


Hi all,

Just to clarify. dpaustex, I agree with Alan that the your statement of "doubling on ascent for every 33 feet of depth" isn't entirely correct. And as Alan has pointed, it would be correct from 33 feet to the surface. However, just so there is no confusion, I believe Alan intended to say 99 feet and not 132. Since no-one else corrected it, I was a bit concerned that you may have had some confusion working it out.

At the surface - 1 Atmosphere (14.7psi) of pressure from the earth's atmosphere
33' 2 atmospheres
66' 3 atmospheres
99' 4 atmospheres
132' 5 atmospheres

sooo... a volume of air taken at 99 feet (4atm) would indeed double in volume when the pressure was reduced by half (to 2atm) which would occur when a diver reached 33 feet.... and then double again (4 times the original 99 foot volume) in the last 33 feet to the surface when the pressure from 2 atmospheres decreases in half again to the 1 atmiosphere at the surface.... clear as mud?

/hijack

now back to your originally scheduled discussion


I believe shutting off a students air under controlled conditions so they know what will happen and what it might feel like to have no air is a positive training experience that can be easily managed. I have never had a concern from a student with just doing this. I've done it in very shallow water where a student could easily have reached the surface by standing up. I found it valuable when I took my OW as it simply answered an obvious question that I had no idea at the time what the sensation might be or how the equipment would "feel".

Combining with the EBA as is outlined by SSI... I believe it can be safe, but does have elements that increase the complexity and requires clear direction and controls by the instructor.

The subtle change in SSI documentation Bryan has pointed out does seem to me to add some confusion. If I read it again - it seems it is required, but the conditions have to be perfect... soooo what does that mean exactly?...

I believe a CESA is critical to proper training, teaching how to ditch weight is also critical to proper training when one considers the number of diving fatalities that occur on the surface - but the timing of ditching... do I ditch weight at 120 feet, or if I think I'm not going to make it doing a CESA, or when I reach the surface, at the surface if I'm struggling to orally inflate... or ... (add your proposal here) that does add confusion and turns this thread into a do-you-ditch-or-not thread --- not something that we need another of on SB I don't think.

I believe the OP has been answered pretty fully SSI's view of shutting off air... good discussion.

 

[Jeff Toorish]

It's not a bad thing for students to really understand what it feels like to suck on a second stage and have nothing come out. The SSI approach is reasonable in my opinion.

Jeff

 

[Meanee]

Did EBA from 30' during my checkout dives. Instructor turned off my air (was turned off during inhale), so I was nervous that I won't reach surface soon enough. Did exhale on the way up, and got to surface easy enough. What I did not know was that my instructor was riding up with me and turned on the tank as soon as I started my ascent.

 

[MDJ1016]

It sounds bad, but if you have a good instructor (as I did), the "pre-fear" is worse than the actual event. Just remember to exhale on the way up, and remember it should only have to be done once.

If you aren't one that feels safe in the water or has anxiety about the even make sure you tell your instructor BEFORE you get in the pool. At first I had anxiety about learning certain things, but as mentioned earlier a good instructor can make all the difference!