Split/Paddle, Anything in the middle or other?

[Bob Evans]

Dan, just when I thought I was having a nice day. Your put down of our us Navy seals considering the amount of fins we have sold to them makes your comments sound invalid. You have stirred up the beans for sure but I am to busy now a days to be the trash collector like of the past. I am sure others will take you up on your challenges.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, just when I thought I was having a nice day. Your put down of our us Navy seals considering the amount of fins we have sold to them makes your comments sound invalid. You have stirred up the beans for sure but I am to busy now a days to be the trash collector like of the past. I am sure others will take you up on your challenges.

Great. Just when I am in the middle of a good rant, Bob has to visit......Ok, while this is way off the direction I was intending, I will offer some concessions:

1. First, Bob Evans passionately believes in the fins he designs. I have met him, and I know this to be a fact.
2. Most scuba divers are NOT extremely physically fit, so the "best" fin for many divers is NOT the fin that is best for the most fit diver...While freediving fins do not require great fitness or strength, they DO require far more coordination than a traditional or a force fin, in order to be used effectively. Bob has created fins that are ideal for many divers.
3. Force Fins have several different models, which correlate well to different fitness levels in divers--essentially offering smaller gears to weak divers, and bigger gears for stronger divers. However, they still do not have a model for a highly fit athlete for a one to 2 hour long effort....A SEAL swim over 20 miles represents a low level aerobic effort, for muscles conditioned to low level effort over an extremely long duration--far longer than any scuba profiles I can imagine getting myself into
4. Force fins allow many divers to enjoy diving right away, rather than to require fitness related training for several months to avoid cramping...this being relevant to divers who have cramping problems with normal fins.

The bone I have to pick, is with advertising ALL the fin manufacturing companies use, where they claim they are more efficient, and faster than all other fins. I have seen each of my cyclist friends that I have gotten into diving, put on freedive fins, and within one day, outswim any DM or instructor using traditional fins or splits. The efficiency difference is so amazing, it should not be ignored. Yes you need more coordination, but this can be learned for most people.

For me to drop this rant, I need to have an opportunity to prove in real world conditions, without the lies and deciept the scuba rags ( magazines) are famous for in their testing...that freedive fins are the faster , more efficient fins. I am not in the dive industry, and have no monetary stake in this. It's one of those things you have to do because it "ought" to be done. Kind of a Kantian imperative.

I am not trying to say that Force fins are not the best fins for many divers--in fact, I believe they are excellent for many divers. Splits are another story, as they have always showed themselves to be pitifully inferior in virtually all conditions, for virtually all divers--there is always a better alternative than a split fin

Dan

 

[Splitlip]

If it is junk science, then why would it be so effortless for me to leave any of you guys behind me, with the type of fins you are suggesting. I think you have been reading too much dive industry propaganda, and are forgetting that real world results will mean much more. My offer is open to any of you guys with splits or force fins. Either your fins are more eficient, or they are not. Lets prove this

And the "reason" for the freediving fin is not specifically to go faster than everyone else, it is to travel at a given scuba pace, with much less effort than anyone using the fins you suggest. This means less air for the freedive fin diver to go through, and more comfort throughout the dive. It also means a huge margin for safety if you ever "have to" beat a huge current, or some other non-planned event requires high speed potential.

Dan

Cressi freediving fins rock in current.

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

Just throwing out a couple of names for a fins that are a cross between a split and a paddle


spaddles

padlits

spliddles

paplits

 

[highdesert]

... uhmm ... what was the original question?

 

[Splitlip]

... uhmm ... what was the original question?

"Split/Paddle, Anything in the middle or other? "

Naturally in the "middle" or "other", we would have freediving fins and Force Fins. I own both.

Also Jets and splits.
So I am

 

[US Dive Shows]

Mr. Incredible uses the Force Fins, for years he has, why, simple, quality. They are proven to work in currents as well as all types of dive conditions.

I saw Mr. Incredible using them. His entire Family uses them.

 

[meesier42]

And hearing about a seal team doing a 20 mile swim with force fins is not in any way meaningful to a recreational or technical diver. Go find a SEAL, put some classic Force fins on him, and I will bet $1000 he will be far behind me after a one hour swim at 60 feet deep. This is NOT about "me". This is about fins.
We are constantly barraged with "claims" from fin manufacturers about how efficient their fins are--how fast their fins are....and then as soon as I through the BS flag, someone has to start telling me that diving is not a drag race.....of course it is not. But efficiency is important, and being able to deal with sudden changes in currents ( or wind effecting a boat) is important too.

Dan

Did you ever stop to think the MOST of the Seals using ForceFins are using the classic ForceFins (Original or Pro verisons), only some of them use the TanDelta, and fewer yet using the Military SD-1. not to mention that efficiency is the ONLY reason that they select their equipment. And the US Navy Seals are allowed to use whatever fins they desire and special operations forces worldwide have selected ForceFins as their fins. Since thse SOF groups are the only diving group that I know of that makes their living by how quickly and efficently they can cover distances I believe they are uniquely qualified to determine and test the efficiency of their equipment.

The only real valid test of VO2 consumption that I know of, state

"Our recent data analysis has suggested that the cost of swimming cannot be determined from the kick frequency. This is somewhat paradoxical. If the frequency is low, the force per kick can be high; while, if the frequency, is high, the force per kick can be low. Therefore, one can observe energy requirements for any combination of kick frequency and kick force.

As far as fin selection is concerned, the differences between the fins were not remarkable underwater. It would appear that for short swims there are no differences; however, for longer swims the small differences become significant. The most economical fins were the smaller, very to moderately flexible styles. The larger, less flexible fins were the least economical. The presence of vents did not seem to be an advantage under any condition. It would appear that the smaller, more flexible fins did not compromise neither speed nor force underwater."​

seems to oppose your comments, so please feel free to instruct the entire Department of Physiology of the University of Buffalo on why the methods and results they collected from 200 swimmers, novice to competitive is faulted. 200 divers, all tested in a flume tank, all with exercise monitors and CO2 production and O2 consumption monitors, and each testing 15 sets of fins. That is a very large sample set to draw conclusions from. That is not some magazines results, that is a University based, intelletually examined, and scientifically controlled study, so even IF you manage to keep up with, or even beat me, it really doesn't mean anything, as our "playing" wouldn't even show up a a blip on the screen of the 3000+ data points that already exist.

I feel compelled to say a couple of things.
1) I do not work for ForceFin. I am a dedicated believer in the ForceFin product line, I have been asked to represent ForceFin at DEMA and am proud to be considered a friend by Bob Evans and the ForceFin family. I came to ForceFin after hearing about them and in absolute disbelief had to test them for myself.
2) I have a strong background in swimming, reaching national level competition in my day. I earned my Divemaster qualification and certified as a Navy Diver. I know what it means to push heavy loads, I know what it means to have to overcome a 3knot current, and have had to "assist" more than a few divers back into shore when the conditions went bad.
3) Does speed really matter, NO. But when you consider that each person can only perform a given amount of work (baring long term training and physical conditioning), speed is a good indicator of the efficiency, not the whole story, but a good start point when you can't easily monitor all of the variables. As that means that a diver has to work less to get the same amount of speed that they desire.
4) I will do my best to bring a Seal (in ForceFins of course) with me when I come down to take your $1000 from you. they're pretty busy guys right now (I am sure you know why) so I can't promise anything.


As for my personnal opinions- I like to believe that I base my opinions on the testing that I have observed, not from the rags, not from second hand chatter, from testing that I have done, and testing that I have been part of. I think that they are as objective as opinions can be.

For me
Paddle fins (Jets, Quattros, etc) have a purpose, I am not entirely sure what it is, but they do great control when control is critical. But there are better designs out there for recreational scuba diving.
FreeDive fins- again they have a purpose, primarily I believe they belong in their environment- Freediving. sure they can be used in scuba and other applications, but I believe, and have shown in my testing, that fins designed for scuba are generally better for scuba. My primary issue with them is that they are too cumbersome and difficult to maneuver for scuba. Especially in areas with fragile coral
Splits- I have owned and extensively used the Atomics and the Apollos and used a few others. I can't stand them, easy to kick yes, fast yes (at least in a short sprint)... but I can't maintain a kick rate of 200 kicks/min to actually make headway into a current when I need to, and I doubt many can. The Original Split fin (aka Foil Force) is the only Splits that I will ever use again, and its not even close to my favorite fin to use.
Others (Manta Ray, 6Gill, Mor-fin)- tried them, ehh. gimicks, nough said. Although there is something errily familar about the Mor-fins- they seem to be exactly the same length, width, and shape (minus the upcurved tips) of the ForceFin Originals, huh, now why would they do that?
ForceFins- well, you already know that I believe in the product line. why?? well... because they work. they work for the first time diver, first time swimmer and snorkeller, they are quickly adopted by expirienced swimmers because it matches the powerful efficient kick they have been doing since birth, for SOF because they are efficient, and for almost everyone else because they are lightwieght, packable, and nearly indestructable. They have been used in caves and deep inside of the darkest wrecks, being selected by some of the best known divers out there (John Chatterton, Jean-Micheal Cousteau, Jonathan Bird, Phil Nuytten, Hal Watts), these men can all use whatever equipment they want, but they choose ForceFins, there must be a reason for it.

Sure, we all have a bone to pick with advertising, and I think that Bob and ForceFin has an overflowing plate of ribs. Since ForceFin DOESN'T PAY for the studies that they use, they simply collect the information that others do for them. Companies like Rodales chose not to include ForceFin in their testing because they know their paying advertisers will revolt when their products are beaten. There has even been a case of a legitimate scientific study not using ForceFins because the design violated the assumptions that the study used, what was really interesting is that this study proved that the design criteria of FF is the best, but they couldn't identify a fin in the test that met the requirements for efficiency. ForceFin is simply trying to get the information that independent studies provide them with. These are not focused studies to prove FF claims, its the other way around, the studies make the claims and ForceFin distributes them.

 

[danvolker]

Did you ever stop to think the MOST of the Seals using ForceFins are using the classic ForceFins (Original or Pro verisons), only some of them use the TanDelta, and fewer yet using the Military SD-1. not to mention that efficiency is the ONLY reason that they select their equipment. And the US Navy Seals are allowed to use whatever fins they desire and special operations forces worldwide have selected ForceFins as their fins. Since thse SOF groups are the only diving group that I know of that makes their living by how quickly and efficently they can cover distances I believe they are uniquely qualified to determine and test the efficiency of their equipment.

The SEAL teams are doing several things in the water, that a scuba diver would not want to do--and this impacts greatly on fin choice:

1. Jumping out of helicopters or HALO jumps. Freedive fins would have the blade cracking from only a few helicopter impacts from 10 feet or more---you are not even supposed to giant stride into the water with freedive fins--you dive, backflop, etc.--you don't over flex the blade. So water entry would typically force SEALS to refuse the freedive fins.
2. My assumption is, that on most in-water missions, the SEAL Teams are not slick in the water like Michael Phelps, but instead, are loaded down with considerable high drag gear, including weopons....this relates strongly to the gearing needed in a fin...if you are going to have to push a huge load through the water, you need a small gear to avoid using too much muscle exertion per kick stroke--to shift this from potentially anaerobic effort to aerobic effort. Freedive fins are a much bigger gear than classic Force fins. The proper use is with as close to zero drag as possible( as in freediving), but they will also work well with a streamlined scuba setup, such as a Halcyon backplate and wings, and stremlined DIR gear configuration. There needs to be a big slow kick, and a long glide following, for maximum efficiency..this is NOT how you use traditional fins, or force fins, where fast turnover is the key.
3. There has been a swimming race around Key West ( I think that was the place) for many years, where swimmers and people with fins on compete. If memory serves, this is aboout a 10 hour swim to win. Typically swimmers without fins will win. Does that tell us that for scuba diving, we should NOT wear fins? Of course not. It tells us that for extreme duration and distance, you need massive aerobic conditioning and well developed glycogen loading...as well as a small gear for foot based propulsion..to keep the effort entirely aerobic. It appears for this duration event, adding fins creates too large an anaerobic component for most swimmers, and ultimately leads to muscle failure. I relate this more closely to SEAL "needs" on missions where they may have very long swims. They do not need speed as much as they need to have absolute certainty they wil remain in perfect physical shape throughout the swim, and arrive with plenty of muscle glycogen left in their legs. Freedive fins are available in soft flex for freedivers who compete for 8 hours at a time, and this very soft choice would be effective for the distance/duration---if....there was a slick wetsuit /scuba config with low drag and no weopens to push along, and if the SEAL was using the very soft freedive fins that are chosen for long duration--and these are not commonly even known about by people in the scuba industry. There are fins designed for just one hour of divng, primarily deep drops--these are very stiff for a freediving fin, and would not be a good likely choice for most divers wishing a duration record. And there are several intermediate stiffnesses, all set up for various depth ranges and durations. Again, you would need to know what each fin will do for you, to make the right choice. And there are some really crummy freedive fins, which would invalidate the whole concept if these were used in a "test". Among the brands that can be considered as good, are Omer ( the carbon fiber ones) , Cressi--again, you have to match the right model to the diver, as they have several different flex choices; Esclapez used to have several good choices, but I think they went out of business;the carbon fiber Picasso fins are also excellent. Riffe is ok, but I would avoid beuchat/mares and a few other mass marketed junk brands from big companies.
4. Even though a SEAL would by definition, have to have high VO2 max ( just to survive training), they would still need to "learn" how to kick freediving fins...I have had many dive instructors and DM's try my extra freedivng fins, and most do not get the coordination going on the 1st or 2nd day using them--some need to be shown, some figure it out, eventually. They do NOT perform if kicked in the manner a competitive swimmer has trained to kick---you have specific fitness in a certain range of motion, with the competitive swimmer's kick, and this coordinated motion in NOT well related to the motion set used in the freedivng fin kick. Swimmers would be far less useful in showing what freedive fins could do, than would competitive cyclists--as the cyclists use a range of motion and have developed muscle speed and power more closely matching the needed range in a freedive fin.

The only real valid test of VO2 consumption that I know of, state

"Our recent data analysis has suggested that the cost of swimming cannot be determined from the kick frequency. This is somewhat paradoxical. If the frequency is low, the force per kick can be high; while, if the frequency, is high, the force per kick can be low. Therefore, one can observe energy requirements for any combination of kick frequency and kick force.

As far as fin selection is concerned, the differences between the fins were not remarkable underwater. It would appear that for short swims there are no differences; however, for longer swims the small differences become significant. The most economical fins were the smaller, very to moderately flexible styles. The larger, less flexible fins were the least economical. The presence of vents did not seem to be an advantage under any condition. It would appear that the smaller, more flexible fins did not compromise neither speed nor force underwater."​

This may have significance to what the original point of the test design was ( which we have not read, and can not imagine) , but it is not a useful discussion for the obvious needs of scuba diving or freediving. This would be it's own thread, as it means disecting the purpose of the tests, the results they claim to be expecting, and ultimately disecting the conclusions, based on what tests they ran. Journal articles are notorious for stating they will prove something, and then ultimately, not proving this ---which is why students in college and grad school have to get to be good at "critiquing" journal studies.

I will write more later...as for now, I am heading out to go dive

Regards,
Dan V
​

 

[danvolker]

Also..how about a few instances of when you need your fins to allow speed to be developed....and this is in contrast to most of diving, where you are just glidig along effortlessly, with no desire to go fast....

1. You drift into a shipwreck 100 feet down, such as the Castor off DelRay Beach, fl....today it had a big current on the bottom that was going south instead of North, so the typical drop has you swimming into a current, in order to get to the wreck..the surface seemed to have either zero current or slight North. On a dive like today, you need to get your belly near the bottom or the ship deck, where the current is slower. Splits would be failing here, and each time I have been on charter dives in a scenario like this, you see the split fin divers getting blown off the wreck, unless you take pity and pull them over to the wreck--and get them to hang on to the superstructure. And while this is a cool wreck ( close to 25 jewfish on it today), it has no where near the currents of some of our other cool wrecks--say like the skycliff.
2. On our 2nd dive today, on the boynton ledge, we started on the fingers on the outside, looking for cobia or hogs, and then after about 15 minutes headed up over the crown...Except the current was blowing strong , trying to push you into deeper water offshore--opposte the desired direction of swimming. This would have yanked split fin divers completely off of the reef, over sand at 110 feet and deepening..ie, they would have had to abort. With freedive fins and slick backplate /wing DIR gear config, we could kick and glide, but the glide was limited due to the very fast offshore push of the current, so there was more high turnover kicking, but this develops huge speed with the freediving fins. It took about 5 minutes to cross over the crown to the inshore ledge, and then you can get out of the current. This is an ideal use of the freedive fin speed potential--huge for a burst of 5 to 15 minutes. For most divers that were not trained athletes, after ten to 15 minutes they would be getting to the end of their high speed reserves ( they would have depleted their glycogen ) but there are very few scenarios where you need high speed for more than a few minutes. After the burst, it is usually back to kick and glide.
3. While not an issue for us today, there are days when you will surface, and the boat can be blown away from where you are--particularly if they had set up to pick up a different diver, and you are on the wrong side for wind movement of the boat. If you have freedive fins, or even force fins, you will likely make this without problems, but with splits the boat wil have to start up again and go after you
4. The scenario where a SEAL with Force Fins would have a tough time, and a split fin wearer would be instantly off the back, gone......Lobster diving of the back side of Juno, in around 110 feet....there are huge expanses of flat limestone covered by sand, and then there will be a large, circular hole, undercut ledge all the way around. These blowouts in the sand can be 400 yards apart, but are filled with lobster. With freedive fins, we go from one blowout to the next as if on scooters....the force fin wearing seal may keep up, but he will be sucking way more air than we will be, and at 110 feet, there is not a big margin for this. Now, if the boat was no where to be seen when we surfaced, and we had to swim in the 3 miles to shore..., I could do this with the freedive fins and my cycling fitness, but I expect the SEAL would be at no disadvantage for this effort, and then he could jog to the nearest phone once we made it to shore......ie., I would predict he would have the advantage on this leg of the trip.