Split from Catalina Diver died.. Advanced Certification is a joke

[SteveR1952]

I can't speak to the history of the materials or the author's or even the different philosophies of the different organizations. All I can relate to is the PADI materials since that is all I have been exposed to.

I am in the middle of a couple of certifications with PADI. Drysuit and AOW. I have read all the material and have taken all the tests including the final tests on all the subjects. I did not have to for the AOW; just the ones for the 6 dives I would be doing, but I felt I wanted to know all the areas so I did them all. My observations of the training to date.

PADI has to write the books to be understandable to nearly all age groups early teen to older adult and to lesser formal educational levels. This means the materials need to be written in a simplistic manner and without too much science or math. This also "dumbs down" the information somewhat. The design of the training appears to be created by an elementary school teacher (my mother was one ) so the material is repeated several times to make sure the reader sees the most important stuff several times. The really important stuff is also flagged in the margin to make sure the student pays attention to the paragraph. The mini-tests re-enforce the concepts and the final tests are mostly essay which requires a more thorough understanding of the key concepts to fully answer the questions. Over all it is what I would expect for a course designed to provide some fundamental concepts to young students with limited higher education. It also seems designed to allow the instructor to move quickly through the materials and takes a lot of the concept teaching off their shoulders to a large degree so they can focus on the practical application of the concepts in the water.

How well all this works is very dependent on the instructor. Just reading the book, watching the DVDs and taking the tests does not provided any real world experience in the tasks required to attain certification. These are up to the instructor and they make or break the course by how much they can teach and how much they expect from the student to "pass" the course. This is the weakest link and large classes create less skilled divers from my experience. Skill teaching gets diluted with more than a couple of students. One class I was auditing was the final pool class for OW. The class had 8 students...all age 12-13 with only one instructor. It was chaotic and learning at its' worst.

My drysuit class is just me. I requested it that way and paid a premium for that level of one on one instruction. My AOW will be all ocean open water dives off the live aboard and with several instructions on the same trip. It should be a blast and very intense with time to fully discuss questions after each dive.

I don't know how PADI could really do much different and still bring in a decent cash flow if they made the courses longer or harder. At some point the level of training vs time will show a trend and something will need to be done to keep the program credible.

Overall, I find the PADI training materials a bit simplistic and boring. I would much rather have more detail and have the instructor provide more of the concepts and skip the baby steps in the testing. The instructor should be able to determine my understanding of the concepts as well as the diving techniques much better than a written test.

My $0.2

 

[rstofer]

How do you think consumers would respond to a 3 month training course at $2000?

Oddly enough, I would embrace such a course for my grandson. He was PADI certified last year and the instruction was one-on-one. Still, I think he would be more comfortable and a better diver if such a course was readily available.

Sure, we could move to LA County but that's kind of a stretch. He could wait until he is in college and get the training through a university program but that would be a long way off.

So, it is what it is. He'll stay shallow and we'll watch him like a hawk. Eventually he will become a great diver.

I would actually vote in favor of a long (and, consequently, expensive) course as the standard for the industry. Sure, we would have a lot less students but those that completed the program would actually become divers.

Oh, and we would need a LOT fewer instructors. But those that survived the purge would probably be first rate.

Yup! I'm in favor...

Richard

 

[rstofer]

And, while I'm at it: NAUI used to have an OW II class between OW I and Advanced OW.

Still, if a new student (in the day) took OW I, OW II, Advanced OW and Rescue they would have about 19 dives. I hate to belabor the obvious (but I will): that's not a lot of dives. It's a lot of training but it really isn't a lot of experience.

One point to be made about the NAUI OW exam: no errors allowed on the dive table problems regardless of the overall score. NAUI (or at least our instructor) was absolutely serious about tables (circa '88).

I still believe that 4 class sequence is the minimum a diver should complete BEFORE they contemplate diving with a buddy of equivalent training. I would highly recommend those sections dealing with self-rescue. And, by the way, this gets us to the $1500, 3 month program!

Richard

 

[newmanl]

I liked my 12 week course for $25 in '68!

My 13 week course was $85. And as for the 3month/$2000 course, I like the idea - dive sites would be a lot less crowded!

 

[ae3753]

But also don't lose sight of the fact that this is a small industry and that a lot of the material is being wirtten by the same people. One of my favorites was in the late 80s or early 90s when I had a newly-minted instructor telling me about how superior the PADI material was to the NAUI material.

"Really?" I said. "Look inside the PADI book and tell me who the author is." He looked and the answer came back, "Dennis Graver."

"Now look inside the NAUI book," I said, " and tell me wrote who wrote that." His face fell a bit as he opened the page, looked up, and said, "Oh . . . Dennis Graver."

While I only have the 3rd edition of Dennis Graver's Scuba Diving book, it's an excellent BOW book. And significantly better than PADI's Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving at the time (2nd edition).

 

[scubadada]

From the PADI website:

PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Course

Exploration, Excitement, Experiences.
They’re what the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course is all about. And no, you don’t have to be “advanced” to take it – it’s designed so you can go straight into it after the PADI Open Water Diver course. The Advanced Open Water Diver course helps you increase your confidence and build your scuba skills so you can become more comfortable in the water. This is a great way to get more dives under your belt while continuing to learn under the supervision of your PADI instructor. This course builds on what you’ve learned and develops new capabilities by introducing you to new activities and new ways to have fun scuba diving.

As has been pointed out, you can have your AOW certification with 9 dives, no independent diving, and very little to no "diving" experience.

Several years ago I did the 10th dive with a young, fit, Navy fellow in Key Largo on the Duane as he was the only other single diver on the boat and became my assigned buddy. AOW certification was required by the operator for the Duane. I did not have high expectations for the dive but, as usual, was glad to be diving. Despite very modest current and good visibility, the dive ended up being a total disaster but, happily, ended safely.

I learned a lot from this dive, my buddy certainly learned a lot and we discussed it extensively. Unfortunately, I don't think the operator learned anything though I shared by experience with them. I'm reasonably sure PADI did not learn anything though I communicated with them also. Fortunately, I've not found myself in a similar situation since though I know I might.

Good diving, Craig

 

[ae3753]

While neither the instructor nor the agency are absolute, the interactive term is enormous, and can have a huge effect on the quality of the program that a student receives.

I don't believe in the "it's the instructor not the agency." Rather, it's the combination of both that results in a quality education.

To me, "it's the instructor not the agency" translates to mean that agency's materials and standards are not adequate. As the result, the instructor must add to the materials and teach above the agency standards.

As an instructor, I find this practice offensive.

I want to provide the best diving education possible. Not only do I want my agency to have the best materials, but I want standards that I respect and trust to produce safe and comfortable divers.

 

[Thalassamania]

...While we learned the basics from the recipe-driven course material, we learned MORE from our "informal" chats before our dives. I don't think they would have taught us any differently if we'd been in a NAUI class. The classroom material would have been laid out differently, but what we ultimately learned from them would have been essentially the same

I guess my point is that the quality of the program received (IMO) is way more dependent on the instructor than on the material. While I had no idea that so much of their material is written by the same person, that only reinforces my belief that it's all about the instructor.

I know this has all been discussed before. And it will all get discussed again.

There are several mistakes that you are making. The first myth that you need to shed is the idea that there is a NAUI course to which the PADI course may be compared. There is no such animal, while PADI Instructors have to use PADI materials, follow PADI outlines, etc., NAUI Instructors can use the material that they think most suited to their students and class. The fact that Graver wrote poor materials for both agencies is not one that you should draw any conclusions from, because (much to his chagrin) only PADI mandated the use of Graver’s products, and only PADI mandates the order in which skills are done.

If you were to go through my class (which is NOT a "NAUI" class, since there really is not such thing), you’d find that it breaks all sorts of PADI standards.

With all due respect to your training and background, you are saddled with the same set of blinders that many of the PADI instructors here on SB wear, you do not understand the other options and are making the incorrect assumption that just because they are both diving classes they must somehow be the same thing. This view is more a symptom of your lack of background in diving than it is a handle on reality. But you seem a smart and perspicacious individual, and I though really don't know quite how to explain to a blind person what the color red looks like, I‘ll give it a try.

Let me take this approach: You have an outline for a course, one that has, for many years, been used to train employees for a give suite of demanding and potentially dangerous tasks, we‘ll call that course “A“. There is another course that we’ll call course “B” that is based on your outline, but that has the more difficult academic material and skill training removed so that it can be taught in one fifth the time.

The safety record that the tens of thousands of employees who have taken course “A” is zero fatalities. Participants in course “B” account for about 100 fatalities per year for, perhaps, two orders of magnitude more employees that are trained that way. Similarly the employees trained in course “A” have, on a per capita basis, an order of magnitude less work-loss injuries on the job than do those who take course “B“.

Course “A” takes five times as long, costs two to three times as much.

What is your recommendation to your risk management office concerning which program your company should adopt? Which course would you choose for yourself? Which course would you choose for son or daughter?

It is PADI’s goal is to standardize their courses, perhaps in the mass market that is a good thing, but I find the standard that they are shooting at to be lacking. Yes, within NAUI there is the ability to teach almost exactly the same course, with just a little rescue stuff added, but there is also the ability to teach almost anything that you want as long as it exceeds that minimal standard and that is what I do.

“It’s the instructor, not the agency” is most meaningful with the agency tightly defines the course, and all that’s left is the instructor’s style. But what about reality, which is when one agency tightly controls the course content and the other says, “okay, meet minimum standards and beyond that do what you think is best.” Then both the difference in agency and instructor come into play, no?

I don't believe in the "it's the instructor not the agency." Rather, it's the combination of both that results in a quality education.

I think that what I just said.

To me, "it's the instructor not the agency" translates to mean that agency's materials and standards are not adequate. As the result, the instructor must add to the materials and teach above the agency standards.

I think that is the case, with all the agencies. But do remember that NAUI does not require the purchase or use of NAUI materials, you can use whatever you think best, so it is not a question of adding to, but rather one of selecting in the first place.

As an instructor, I find this practice offensive.

What is it that you find offensice?

I want to provide the best diving education possible. Not only do I want my agency to have the best materials, but I want standards that I respect and trust to produce safe and comfortable divers.

So what agency do you find that with? I find that with none of them.

 

[Cave Diver]

“It’s the instructor, not the agency” is most meaningful with the agency tightly defines the course, and all that’s left is the instructor’s style. But what about reality, which is when one agency tightly controls the course content and the other says, “okay, meet minimum standards and beyond that do what you think is best.” Then both the difference in agency and instructor come into play, no?

No. Even in an agency that calls for higher minimums and allows instructor latitude in teaching, the instructor can still chose to either teach to minimums, or go beyond that like you do.

It still boils down to the instructor, unless you're saying that every NAUI instructor teaches as thoroughly as you do?

 

[Thalassamania]

No I am not saying that every NAUI Instructor teaches as I do. But I am saying that the course I teach, for a variety of reasons, would not be permitted under PADI standards. So yes, it is the instructor in one sense and it is the agency in another sense, it is the interactive term between the two in reality.