Split Fin Physics

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BarrelRoll:

There has been very little bickering in this discussion, a welcome change.

Blackwood started this discussion to ask about the physics of the split fin design. We have many good posts from experienced engineers and serious divers. I hope we continue to have more input.

If you want to discuss split vs. paddle or how much you love your AL sling shot fins, A quick search will get you there. That is not what this thread is about.
 
You guys get sensetive, lol

Nah, I got your ribbing but this particular discussion usually degrades into a pretty rediculous level of name calling and insults by both sides. But it has for the most part been fairly insult free except for a couple snide comments here and there. For the level of civility it has been informative and somewhat educational. The bottom line is find what works for your dive profile and enjoy diving.........
 
I get the sensetivity to marketing your product and all that, I guess my comment was slightly agenda driven...

I would expect this type of high level debate on regs, computers, or nuclear physics... but fins? They all propell you through the water, the cost to diving enjoyment ratio is extremely low between the different models.

I've been scouring the boards for information on second stages and the differences between piston, diaphragm, adjustible and non-adjustible, careers in commercial diving, etc...

And the highest level conversation I can find is whether or not a hole in the fin makes you swim faster?

I guess it's because I did the fluid mechanics thing in the Navy, but this all just seems like minutia masturbation to me. If you have strong legs, go blade. If you don't, do split.

Am I missing something?
 
I get the sensetivity to marketing your product and all that, I guess my comment was slightly agenda driven...

I would expect this type of high level debate on regs, computers, or nuclear physics... but fins? They all propell you through the water, the cost to diving enjoyment ratio is extremely low between the different models.

I've been scouring the boards for information on second stages and the differences between piston, diaphragm, adjustible and non-adjustible, careers in commercial diving, etc...

And the highest level conversation I can find is whether or not a hole in the fin makes you swim faster?

I guess it's because I did the fluid mechanics thing in the Navy, but this all just seems like minutia masturbation to me. If you have strong legs, go blade. If you don't, do split.

Am I missing something?

AW CRAP....... Now what are we gonna do with our spare time? :D
 
I would expect this type of high level debate on regs, computers, or nuclear physics... but fins? They all propell you through the water, the cost to diving enjoyment ratio is extremely low between the different models.

see I pretty strongly disagree with you. when you are diving pretty much the only real muscle power you are using is to fin and the choice of fins and the comfort to a diver is a major factor in how enjoyable a dive really is. While I agree with the idea that everyone needs to find the fins that are most comfortable for them to use, a fin that is uncomfortable is going to immediately cause frustration and pain ultimately resulting in a less than memorable dive. to say that a strong legged swimmer should use paddles and a weaker should use splits has been proven utterly false. In fact every impartial test that I have read has clearly shown that ALL diver will perform better with more floppy fins. But, THIS IS NOT THE DISCUSSION AT HAND, if you would like to discuss that further please start another thread or fit in into any of the hundreds of other threads that have already gripped this issue for hours on end. IF YOU DON'T HAVE INPUT ON THE ORIGINAL TOPIC OF THIS THREAD GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. this has been a great conversational thread lets keep it that way.
 
...I guess it's because I did the fluid mechanics thing in the Navy, but this all just seems like minutia masturbation to me. If you have strong legs, go blade. If you don't, do split.

Am I missing something?
Yes, you are missing quite a bit. If you simply go up and down with buoyancy, or drift with a current, then fins probably don't mean too much. But if you swim in a current, pull something heavy off the bottom, or swim a distance, then fins make a whole lot of difference. I typically river dive, and work in very high current situations. A puny fin simply won't allow me to do the things I like to do in the water. If you don't believe how far we've come, take try a pair of Churchill fins if you can find them. You'll see what you have been missing. (By the way, that was a mighty bad choice of words above.)

A while back one fellow put up a pair of Finis zoomers as an example of a wing concept (I think). Well, Finis makes more than these zoomers--they make monofins, which are the undisputed fastest fins in the water. If you want to see them in action, you can look at the Texas Finswimming Association's website, which has a video clip made by the Russian Underwater Federation which you should take a look at. The monofin uses a somewhat different theory of propulsion, which involves a long, flat surface with an "S" shaped curve in it which pushes water down the blade. It takes practice to get the kick correct, and make much headway with a monofin. If you want to see the wake turbulence and vortices put out off the monofin, take a look at the other video on the Texas Finswimming Association's website, titled "100m Women's Immersion..." This is an underwater swim with scuba (tank held in front of the finswimmer), so the vortices show in the swimmer's bubbles. I say this as the past (1980s) Director of Finswimming for the Underwater Society of America. When I was Director, the world record for 50 meters apnea (breath-holding) was 14.99 seconds. It's lower now.

This morning I took my three pairs of Plana fins to the pool. I had the original fins, the ones with a split modification, and the ones I modified into the scoop design. I swam in a 25 yard pool, two lengths for time, five times per set, and three sets (each with a different pair of fins). I swam only the dolphin kick. I counted the number of strokes and the time of the swim for each one, and recorded them. I tried very hard to keep the same level of effort on each of the swims, and used the same turn (a flip turn). Here are the fins I used:
PlanaPlusExperiment.jpg


The results are that the split fins were slightly faster than the blade fins, but not significantly so. The average number of strokes and times were as following:

Fin type.......................Strokes........................Seconds
Flat...............................30.8............................43
Split..............................30.2............................43
Scoop............................29...............................40

In a mile swim, the scoop would have beaten (had I been able to keep up the same effort for a mile) both the flat blade and the split by 1.76 minutes. The scoop fin would have used about 63 fewer strokes than the blade fin in a mile swim, and 42 less strokes than the split fin.

So now I do have some numbers on the scoop fin. This is a very preliminary evaluation, and based only upon 2 lengths x 25 yards/length x 5 sets = 250 yards of swimming for each set. So the reliability is not there, but it is a start.

SeaRat
 

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SeaRat - I think one thing you're showing with your test is that you can generate more power from your kick when the curve of the fin matches the natural strength curve of your kick. We have more power in the forward kicking motion than when we pull our kick back. Add some resiliency, or Snap to that fin blade, and you'll be able to sustain the speed even longer.
 
SeaRat - I think one thing you're showing with your test is that you can generate more power from your kick when the curve of the fin matches the natural strength curve of your kick. We have more power in the forward kicking motion than when we pull our kick back. Add some resiliency, or Snap to that fin blade, and you'll be able to sustain the speed even longer.

Can you explain how those data lead to that conclusion?
 
Just looking at the orientation of fins, it appears self evident that a airfoil type effect that produces propulsion due to low and high pressure areas can't be occurring. For that to happen, the foil surface would have to be oriented perpendicular to the diver, not parallel as in the case of fins. If there is any foil effect, it's not being used to propel the diver.

What they're describing would be like an airplane with the wings trailing sideways behind the plane.

Fins run parallel to the diver, so any foil effect produced by split fins would be producing sideways forces.
 
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