Spiegel Incident

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My general impression may be inaccurate here, but I get the idea that the family, owning water front property and boats at home and in Florida, got certified years ago, did not see a need for continuing education or DAN magazine and accident coverage for their family diving & hunting, got into habits that they'd gotten away with for years - which included leaving an untended boat while all aboard went in together, but managed to get away with their family approach until the boys got new air tanks that increased their back gas from 78 cf to 119, with a 7# increase in weighting need.

It kind of sounds like their general dive plan was to surface before they ran out of air? Anyway, with 53% more back gas, the boys could stay down longer than they ever had - and they used almost all of their back gas to do so, perhaps unknowingly crossing NDLs. Whether weighting was the cause or not, there was a buoyancy problem with uncontrolled ascent. Down too long, up too fast.

I agree, that's why I asked the following:

Information that would still be interesting for discussion:

1. How long were they on or around the bottom before dad left?
2. Was dad actively fishing as well, or just hanging and watching his sons play around?
3. What were dad's turn pressure and ascent profile?
4. What were the twins' pressure when dad turned?
5. How often were they checking their pressure levels?
6. How long after dad left did they remain before starting ascent?
7. If there were no gas issues, what was their original ascent plan?
8. While thay have made many dives together, had they been to the Spiegel Grove before?
9. How about other dives at this depth?
10. How many dives had they done since getting the 119s? Any other deep dives?
 
This statement is just wrong!! Gas absorption is affected by more things than pressure and time- (if these were the only two variables DCS would be much more predictable). Nitrogen saturation is effected by perfusion of the tissues (perfusion will be effected by workload- blood pressure,body composition, etc...), temperature (Henry's Law), time at depth, partial pressure, breathing rate and activity will effect CO2 levels which also have effects on absorption and elimination of nitrogen.

N2 tissue saturation is not a simple pressure and time curve

John Lippmann and Dr Simon Mitchell (Deeper into Diving) and Mark Powell (Deco for Divers) both write that increased activity increases nitrogen on/off-gassing. Both books recomend light activity during the decompression phase of the dive as being beneficial but heavy excercise during the dive increases DCS risk.
 
It sounds like the divers were either not very experienced or proficient. They may or may not have had watches and may or may not have had more of a plan than go up before the air runs out.

One got lucky and one didn't. The distribution of when DCS occurs at a particular time/depth is quite wide for a particular individual on a particular day.

There is nothing about how this dive went down that would suggest proficient divers... from diving at these depths with a plan to go up when air gets low to not being able to control BC's and ascents.

It's tragic and a wake up call of what can happen. Just because you might be able to get away with poor diving techniques doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to be able to do this.

Sure, technical divers can dive without computers. Anyone can dive with only time and depth if they are proficient but there's nothing in this thread to indicate that they are proficient divers.

The real lesson or maybe surprise or at least reminder is that just because DCS doesn't occur all that often and when it does it's usually less severe than this case doesn't mean that any one diver can count on it not being severe.

People walk away from car crashes with only minor injuries more times than not but when circumstances are only a bit different the results can be completely different. Many teenagers get away from street racing and some die from it...other's live to grow up and suffer no repercussions and yet it is a bad idea in either case.

I think that's more or less the situation here...blown deco and a rapid ascent.
 
I'm fairly new to this, but so far my little experience has been that I never need to touch the inflator when ascending. In fact, I think I could disconnect it with confidence and orally inflate at the surface if need be. So far, what I do is let out some gas, then use my lungs and/or swim up to the next stop, then use my lungs to hold the stop, then let out some more gas and/or swim to the next stop and so on.

Am I doing it wrong (tm)?

The concept of using lung volume to control buoyancy was never discussed in my OW class. Some OW classes are so insistent about never stop breathing/never hold your breath that they have students virtually hyperventilating. :shakehead: More focus on the mechanics of breathing would be a benefit. Often new divers are hyperventilating , putting so much air in their lungs that it effects not just SAC but also buoyancy!

Students need to breathe NORMALLY with a relaxed airway! We need to educate divers about the fact that we naturally have a pause.... exhale...inhale... slight pause exhale with a relaxed airway. There is a difference between that pause with a relaxed airway and HOLDING YOUR BREATH or SKIP BREATHING!

Breathing is a voluntary and involuntary action so when we think about our breathing ... we change our breathing. If you want to learn about this... watch someone breathing when they don't realize you are watching them.... then tell them you want to watch their breathing and how they do it and tell them not to change their breathing at all... try this with different people. This "experiment" will help to recognize normal breathing... then compare it to how you breath under water.

Any time someone talks about using lungs to control bouyancy for safety sake it must be stressed that it means you may take slightly deeper or shallower breaths but you must keep your airway "relaxed" and not HOLD your breath! You must not over inflate your lungs or deny the air your body needs.

A properly weighted diver should not need a lot of air in their BDC... of course that is also greatly effect by the exposure suit. I use virtually only my lungs for bouyancy in my summer gear... more use of BCD in my 3mil and more again in my 5mil

I would be interested to hear form other divers who use 7mil or drysuits when or if they use their lungs for the fine tuning of their buoyancy. TSandM please correct me if I have not explained this well. I just think education is important when it comes to this topic/technique.

John Lippmann and Dr Simon Mitchell (Deeper into Diving) and Mark Powell (Deco for Divers) both write that increased activity increases nitrogen on/off-gassing. Both books recomend light activity during the decompression phase of the dive as being beneficial but heavy excercise during the dive increases DCS risk.

Dr Michell has an astounding background as a Hyperbaric Specialist having been in charge of the Hyperbaric Unit in Brisbane and Sydney Hospitals as well as the NZ Navy. He is also a brilliant speaker if you every have a chance to attend a presentation by him.. Jump at the chance!. We had some very interesting discussions with him about the role of cold, gender, age and body fat content in DCS.

It sounds like the divers were either not very experienced or proficient. They may or may not have had watches and may or may not have had more of a plan than go up before the air runs out.

One got lucky and one didn't. The distribution of when DCS occurs at a particular time/depth is quite wide for a particular individual on a particular day.

There is nothing about how this dive went down that would suggest proficient divers... from diving at these depths with a plan to go up when air gets low to not being able to control BC's and ascents.

It's tragic and a wake up call of what can happen. Just because you might be able to get away with poor diving techniques doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to be able to do this.

Sure, technical divers can dive without computers. Anyone can dive with only time and depth if they are proficient but there's nothing in this thread to indicate that they are proficient divers.

The real lesson or maybe surprise or at least reminder is that just because DCS doesn't occur all that often and when it does it's usually less severe than this case doesn't mean that any one diver can count on it not being severe.

People walk away from car crashes with only minor injuries more times than not but when circumstances are only a bit different the results can be completely different. Many teenagers get away from street racing and some die from it...other's live to grow up and suffer no repercussions and yet it is a bad idea in either case.

I think that's more or less the situation here...blown deco and a rapid ascent.

I hope sk will be able to give us the information about the dive plan. I am hesitant to conclude there was NO plan or proficiency of the divers based on what we know. Has the BCD/ inflater checked to see if there are any issues with them?

Proficient divers sometimes get Narked, distracted which is why I like the alarms on my computer.

I agree with you the differences in physiology and even health at the time of the dive can also effect who gets a hit when and how bad. How well rested, hydrated, nourished, or incubating a virus impact our DCI risks to some degree as well!

Just my .02
 
This statement is just wrong!! Gas absorption is affected by more things than pressure and time- (if these were the only two variables DCS would be much more predictable). Nitrogen saturation is effected by perfusion of the tissues (perfusion will be effected by workload- blood pressure,body composition, etc...), temperature (Henry's Law), time at depth, partial pressure, breathing rate and activity will effect CO2 levels which also have effects on absorption and elimination of nitrogen.

N2 tissue saturation is not a simple pressure and time curve

I never mentioned saturation, only absorption. Its not the same thing.

Do you have any references to back up your assertions? In particular please explain how breathing rate affects N2 absorption . If it did then every new diver on the planet would be getting bent.

Obviously DCS is very complex,but saying "Diver X absorbed more nitrogen because he was swimming harder" is just flat out wrong

Edit: I may be coming on a bit strong here. Going to start a new thread as this one has been diverted enough already http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...xertion-affect-n2-absorption.html#post4997060
 
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I was in the area diving at the same time, and had been considering a dive on the Spiegel also.

I see you are a fresh diver. I am new but I do have some experience (over 100 dives since June 09) and did some diving deep with instructors and experienced divers keeping an extra eye on me. Do yourself a favor and get an instructor or good mentor to do some deep dives, perhaps even Spiegel Grove with. Ship is not going anywhere for a while and it will be there when you are ready.

Also do yourself a favor, don't try to do it in one dive! I did all my dives (5 so far) on EAN32 (completely doable if you stay on the decks and don't go overboard) and every dive I saw something different. For starters get yourself a slate (Spiegel Grove slate) and do first two dives following it (I did and it gave me good overview dives).
 
I am both saddened and quite frankly amazed by this accident - actually, I want to call it an incident as these divers - from what we know, did not plan or execute their dive properly.

It's been gone over - no computers, no apparent plan, poor buddy backup, overstay at depth = massive deco hit. The end result is not surprising.

I don't know - but will speculate - that there was a cavalier attitude about max bottom time within this group. Both divers took a hit, both overstayed their 'welcome' at depth, and truly, from what we have been told, neither diver knew what the deco obligation was at that point.

As has also been said, it would appear that they have gotten away with this type of diving in the past, so why not now?

I know, it can be done - we can plan and execute on tables - i did this for years - now I dive two computers when going deep (most other times as well).

To be very blunt, with apologies to the mother, who I know will read this, these boys apparently ignored their training (sure, it was several years past).

The one item I would be very interested to know is whether or not they had any training beyond basic open water. I would also be very interested to know what their logbooks (if they logged any of their dives) say about previous deep dives.

As I said, very sad, very upsetting on many levels.

The family has my sympathy.
 
I see you are a fresh diver. I am new but I do have some experience (over 100 dives since June 09) and did some diving deep with instructors and experienced divers keeping an extra eye on me. Do yourself a favor and get an instructor or good mentor to do some deep dives, perhaps even Spiegel Grove with. Ship is not going anywhere for a while and it will be there when you are ready.

Just to be clear, I say I was "considering" a dive on the SG, because the shop I was working with had proposed that my buddy and I go for our AOWs, which would have included a deep dive, most likely on the SG. Since it would have been part of the class, we would have been with an instructor. I still wasn't sure if I was going to do the deep dive or not - I was thinking about it.

As it happened, the shop's instructor availability did not end up allowing for us to complete our AOW, and we did not do the deep dive.

B.
 
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Regarding the posters that have commented that it is not possible to dive the Spiegel Grove safely with an 80 or even 119 cf tank, and there is not enough gas to help a low on air buddy and that it should be executed with doubles, many people do this often on the Spiegel Grove, Duane or other similar sites. Keep in mind that the patient was using a 119 cf, though.

I have been on the Spiegel Grove and Duane on a single AL 80 using EANx 32. I normally have like-minded buddies who are watchful of their gauges and we communicate well and dive conservatively, always leaving enough gas to bring myself and my buddy to the surface with any necessary stops, and likewise for my usual buddies. This was my experience on the Duane with an acquaintance, which mirrors the depth and conditions at the Spiegel Grove and a site which demands respect for the power of the elements:

Ayisha:
Last spring, I was diving the Duane in Key Largo with an instructor who I had been diving with several times before, but nowhere near that deep and never with current with him. The plan was to let each other know when we got to 1500 psi. He had signalled to turn around at what I thought was a reasonable point. I never looked at his gauge or questioned him because he is an instructor and I figured he had plenty of gas just like I did. When I was at nearly 2000 psi, and we were approaching the line, he showed me his gauge which said 200 psi - at 100 feet! I couldn't believe it! I guess he was pretty confident that he wasn't going to lose me... I knew that I had enough gas to get both of us to the surface safely with all of our extra stops along the way, so I wasn't worried. We shared air for the entire ascent, until just before we reached the surface.

He said afterward that when he nearly lost his camera at the surface in the current before it was clipped off, he used a lot of gas. He also routinely checked my consumption and used that plus his knowledge of my low SAC to conduct our dive. How's that crazy take on planning for "our" gas?

This was not a dive that was executed well and the plan was not followed, unbeknownst to me since I still had 2000 psi and we both started with over 3000 psi. I knew that he would have less gas than me because of my very low SAC rate, but I never envisioned anywhere near that much less. Regardless, we managed to have both divers complete the dive with a deep stop and a very slow ascent plus a stop every ten feet, plus the safety stop for 5 minutes at 20 feet, another one minute safety stop at 10 feet and then slowly to the surface. I still surfaced with 780 psi, which is a lot less than what I normally surface with, which is at least 1300 - 1500 psi (normally on an AL 63, BTW). My buddy surfaced with almost nothing and had calculated my gas into his requirement, which was irritating. Not a well executed dive, but it is more than possible with two people on AL 80's.
 
I've just read through 22 pages of this thread and may have missed something but I don't think I saw anything that indicated that the ascent was made along the ascent line. It would seem that if it were (and it should have been) controlling the rapid ascent might have been easier.
 
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