Spiegel Incident

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I'm not sure the 119 automatically makes it a safer dive. In fact, I suspect the extra air allowed them to stay at depth and build up a higher concentration of nitrogen in their blood. Maybe they even exceeded NDL, we don't have the data for that determination. Apparently their father was able to execute a safe dive at the location on an 80.

Any amount of air can be dived safely just as any amount can be misused.

Assuming a SAC rate of 0.60 cu ft / min at 135 feet, in a 119 that would be 38 minutes to drain it dry.

Assuming 35 minutes @ 135 feet for a profile, and a 1 minute ascent to 30 and 1 minute @ 30 for deco, the compartment loading looks like:

5 min: 124%
8 min: 162%
12.5 min: 187%
18.5 min: 196%
27.0 min: 181%
38.3 min: 169%
54.3 min: 143%
77.0 min: 114%
109.0 min: 82%

It does appear that in this case that the size of the tanks may have allowed the divers to go even further over their NDLs than they would have with 80s... (This is the first time I've come across a "tank too big" complication to an accident, and far more common is the "tank too small" complication where divers go OOG on 100 foot dives on Al80s and drown).
 
Oh hell, I know from my own fumbling mistakes that larger tanks can get me in deeper trouble. Diving a 130 on nitrox in NC several years ago, I got into a few minutes of deco, then had a few other problems largely of my own making, but having almost twice as much gas even on nitrox can certainly allow me to overstay my reasonable time at depth significantly. Been there, screwed it royally, barely swam out of it with a clear computer - just barely.

I don't have any info on what the dive plan was for the boys? They didn't have computers, but don't know what they planned on.
 
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sk,

my thoughts are with your family. It looks like this happened end of the year (12/28/09?) when I was in Key Largo diving. I did 2 SG dives on 27th afternoon and 3 more later that week. I am surprised that we heard nothing about this accident while there.

You've answered many many questions but many of us have few more. you might not know the answers but your boys might.

How did they plan the dive (we know they dove w/o computer)? Using times and tables?

What was their planned profile? (what depth for what time)

What was their executed profile? (what depth for what time)

Did they knew they might be over non decompression limits? (Was that part of the plan?)

Thanks!
 
I know there were alot of mistakes made that fateful day, and my only concern is that other dive instructors will be motivated to teach and train keenly from this incident, learn from it, and possibly save some lives. That is what I care about.

Many instructors use these incidents as examples. Unfortunately, many others don't have enough class time available to cover anything that isn't in the OW book and still others are afraid to make SCUBA sound "too scary."

On a more hopeful note, SCUBABoard has a ton of users, so anything that gets posted here has much more exposure than was possible before the internet. Many of the topics discussed (like real gas planning, real dive planning and real buddy skills) are not generally given much coverage in recreational classes, so a lot of divers are completely unaware of many risks and how to handle/avoid them.

Also I wanted to come on this site to find out if anyone knew of anyone that went through something like this, and if they learned any golden secrets for care and rehabilitation. I just dont want to miss out on maximizing his care. I'm Matthew's Mom.

We have a some great docs on the board who should have some helpful ideas. I'm not a doc, but would like to add that as bad as it is, Matthew was actually comparatively fortunate. Over the years, quite a few divers have done what Michael did, but didn't make it.

Good luck, and I wish you and your family the best of luck (and treatment!).

Terry
 
Wasn't his reg sucking hard and he was just about to run out of gas? By the time my regs start sucking hard, I've only got a few more breaths left. It seems this whole discussion about the inflator hose is missing the broader picture that he was OOA..

I think it was established earlier in the thread that Matthew was LOA but not OOA. If I remember correctly, he still had something along the lines of 200-300 psi of air after he surfaced.

(It has been a few days since I read the earlier parts of the thread.)

B.
 
Matthew probably has a PFO (Andrew might or might not have a PFO, but it apparently wasn't a factor in Andrew's dive).

Can you explain a bit more about why you say this, and what the implications are?

Thank you,
B.
 
I think it was established earlier in the thread that Matthew was LOA but not OOA. If I remember correctly, he still had something along the lines of 200-300 psi of air after he surfaced.

(It has been a few days since I read the earlier parts of the thread.)

B.

The reg is usually pulling hard at that PSI reading in depth. He had insufficent gas to stay down any longer IMO given the above facts...
 
Many of the topics discussed (like real gas planning, real dive planning and real buddy skills) are not generally given much coverage in recreational classes, so a lot of divers are completely unaware of many risks and how to handle/avoid them.

I agree that this is one reason why this thread will be very helpful - especially to newer divers. The thing is, at least in my experience, that while gas and dive planning are discussed in OW class, they aren't really executed (understandably) because everyone knows the dives are already planned to be safe. That is, you know you'll be down for about 30-45 minutes or so, at maybe 30'-40'. The dive boat goes out, you and a number of other (more experienced) divers jump over the side, the DM tells you to be back at 500 psi or 1 hour, and on you go.

Of course those dives are pretty much safe as is, so it works out (and you do "reverse plan" the dives in your log, that evening, to learn how to use the tables).

I suppose there is so much to learn in OW class, in a relatively short time, that they are concentrating on immediate skills such as breathing, buoyancy, etc. And of course no-one is doing deep dives in OW class.

(Now, to be fair, we *were* instructed to watch our gas levels carefully and often, and there were numerous drills on showing the hand signals for how much gas you had left, at various points in the dive.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is that time when suddenly, you're not in OW class anymore, and there's a lot more room for error and for accidents to happen. When just a few dives ago (if you're a beginner), you were more or less assured that your dives were "safe" just by the structure of the boat (1 hour or 500 psi), the depths (the reef might only have been 35') etc.

This really brings home how "free" you are, as an independent diver, to make mistakes; and how you have responsibility to plan and execute. And I think that is going to help anyone who reads this thread. Even if it's just a reminder to advanced divers about how important their already-established routines are.

I know I will have this in the back of my mind when I am planning future dives. Some of the take-aways for me are as follows:

1) Only a few details mean the difference between safety and accident. One mistake might be something you can get past, but they stack up.

2) Plan the dive, and dive the plan (yes, you always hear that, but this makes it really real)

3) Like TSandM said, just smile and continue on if anyone laughs at you or rushes you during a plan or buddy check, even if it is an "easy" dive

4) On ascent, be really careful with the inflator button. If air is needed, use multiple small puffs rather than one large one (thanks Lamont).

5) Have DAN and other phone numbers handy.

6) Make sure the dive boat has Oxygen, and that you know where it is (in other words, don't be shy about asking before the trip commences).

7) If for some reason your ascent goes too quickly, and you don't yet have any DCS symptoms, re-submerge for a safety stop.

I'm sure there will be more, but these are just some of the things that are registering with me now. One of the main reasons this incident thread is so useful is that Sandie (and by extension, Matthew) has come here to share details with us, and to answer divers' questions. That doesn't seem to happen very often.

B.
 
2) Plan the dive, and dive the plan (yes, you always hear that, but this makes it really real)

FWIW, the above is certainly true, however actual dive planning isn't usually covered in sufficient detail in OW to be useful at anything much past easy OW depths.

A dive plan of "Be back on the boat with 500PSI" is like telling someone to "Stop 500 feet before you drive off the cliff". (I beleive this was originally a quote from Uncle Pug or NWGrateful diver, and I've probably mangled it)

It's a great plan, but first you need to know where the cliff is, how fast you're going and how long it takes you to stop. A diver needs to know how deep they are, how many cubic feet (or PSI) they use per minute, how long a safe ascent takes and how this translates into cubic feet of gas, and how it compares to what they have available.

Unfortunately, this level of detail generally gets "glossed over" in class as being "too technical", or omitted completely. And just to top things off, narcosis makes people dumber as they go deeper, so just as you get to depths where you really need to be sharp, you're getting dull.

3) Like TSandM said, just smile and continue on if anyone laughs at you or rushes you during a plan or buddy check, even if it is an "easy" dive

Yep. Never rush for anybody and never dive where you're not 100% confident you'll be OK. If they push harder, just stay on the boat.

Terry
 
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