Spearfishing

[smellzlikefish]

Scuba feend took the words right out of my mouth. There is no way that removing animals from the environment is good for the environment. As stated in another discussion, the law is a weak shield to hide behind when it comes to creel limits and size regulations as often the numbers set still aren't sustainable.

I guess some of my trouble is in the justifications I hear, and often they go along the lines of "we're not nearly as bad as those other guys." That's like saying it is okay to shoot your one neighbor in the face because mass murderers have killed millions.

And Scuba- I used to target sustainable fisheries, then I moved to an area where the only sustainable recreational fisheries are reef fish, most of which provide valuable services to the reef community.

I have appreciated posts from everyone in this forum (except the troll) both in the past and present, so we will agree to disagree.

 

[Hank49]

I guess some of my trouble is in the justifications I hear, and often they go along the lines of "we're not nearly as bad as those other guys." That's like saying it is okay to shoot your one neighbor in the face because mass murderers have killed millions.

That's a pretty unreasonable comparison. It's more like, "we have a crowded highway in New York. To solve this problem, lets stop all 1966, green Volkswagon Beetles from using the road".
This is about the same effect on the wild fishery that stopping recreational spearfishing will have. WITH controls on numbers, species, limits and seasons.

 

[DennisS]

Catching lobster and shooting fish are two of the main reasons I dive. I enjoy fresh seafood. I do think mixing shooters and watchers on the same boat isn't a good idea.

One of the worst things I've seen for the environment is the Internet. One person posts about their success lobstering or shooting fish at a certain location and it becomes a hot spot, attracting a concentration of people that normally wouldn't be diving and hunting there, this popularity stresses the environment past a sustainable level .

 

[smellzlikefish]

"This is about the same effect on the wild fishery that stopping recreational spearfishing will have. WITH controls on numbers, species, limits and seasons."

I see the spearfishing, rod/reel fishing, and commercial fishing numbers as having an additive effect in that each entity is removing animals and reductions in any of those categories (and yes, there are others) will result in an overall net increase.

 

[Hank49]

That's pretty obvious. But as numbers go, commercial fishing takes by far the lion's share.

But going back to another point that was brought up regarding shooting the bigger fish. Is some species, like cubera and dog snapper, I don't think that the big fish are the fast growers....well, maybe in some cases. I think it's more that they are just older fish. I believe this because in many of my favorite spots, we see a school of dog snappers almost year round. Very few times are they not there and it's not seasonal. And the number stays about the same, unless they're spawning, especially with cuberas.
If the big fish were fast growers and they all are the same age, what happens? At some point they disappear and are replaced by a new generation? Not likely. I think that new, younger fish are constantly joining the group, as other fish are taken by predators or die, which is probably why smaller (younger) fish are not as smart, or wary.
The larger fish, in many cases could be genetically slower growers, but just lucky, or smart, and happened to get very big.
Also, as I've learned in shrimp genetics. just because you have a couple fast growing shrimp, it doesn't mean the majority of their offspring will grow fast. They could be from a small minority of fast growers from their parent strain and produce a small amount of fast growers in their offspring.
If fast growth were the only factor in fish reproduction in the wild, they would breed out other factors like intelligence and disease resistance, as happens in breeding domestic animals for a certain trait.
Therefore, the taking of the larger fish from a school will have no effect on the overall health of the species. They aren't the only ones breeding anyway. We shoot smaller males in big schools and they're gonads are loaded. if a female spawns, they'll release their sperm and get into the gene pool.

 

[smellzlikefish]

You are right, the bigger fish are usually the older ones, and whatever superior genes they carry have helped them get there. My points are that the fish reproduce better and have most likely have superior genes to have gotten to that size and that they reproduce better. Fast growing was given as a "for example," but this is not necessarily a superior characteristic in natural environments. In aquaculture this is preferred, in the wild, not always.

Aquacultured shrimp (and other crustaceans) have nothing to do with our conversation because their reproduction is so different and they are produced in artificial conditions. I already gave the example of prawns to exhibit this very phenomenon you describe (knowing that you have a background in aquaculture and would bring it up), but I also said these animals are exceptions (in many ways). Their growth is determined more by environmental factors, but there are some genetics involved. In crustacean aquaculture, you select for the females, not males, to get bigger shrimp. In cattle and many fish you usually select males.

You can argue against it till you are blue in the face, but fishing down populations (targeting larger fish, driving the average size of the species down) is happening at the species and whole ecosystem levels. There are countless examples (Atlantic cod, bluefin tuna, whales) where we target larger animals, so the larger animals disappear.

 

[Hank49]

You are right, the bigger fish are usually the older ones, and whatever superior genes they carry have helped them get there. My points are that the fish reproduce better and have most likely have superior genes to have gotten to that size and that they reproduce better. Fast growing was given as a "for example," but this is not necessarily a superior characteristic in natural environments. In aquaculture this is preferred, in the wild, not always.

Aquacultured shrimp (and other crustaceans) have nothing to do with our conversation because their reproduction is so different and they are produced in artificial conditions. I already gave the example of prawns to exhibit this very phenomenon you describe (knowing that you have a background in aquaculture and would bring it up), but I also said these animals are exceptions (in many ways). Their growth is determined more by environmental factors, but there are some genetics involved. In crustacean aquaculture, you select for the females, not males, to get bigger shrimp. In cattle and many fish you usually select males.

You can argue against it till you are blue in the face, but fishing down populations (targeting larger fish, driving the average size of the species down) is happening at the species and whole ecosystem levels. There are countless examples (Atlantic cod, bluefin tuna, whales) where we target larger animals, so the larger animals disappear.

The scaling down of the fish size is because they are so heavily fished, they don't grow old enough to get as big.

But getting back to aquaculture. This is the answer. It's all about cost effectiveness. Once we can grow fish cheaper than they can be caught from the wild, commercial fishing pressure will ease. And THEN it'll all be for us sport fishermen.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

The scaling down of the fish size is because they are so heavily fished, they don't grow old enough to get as big.

But getting back to aquaculture. This is the answer. It's all about cost effectiveness. Once we can grow fish cheaper than they can be caught from the wild, commercial fishing pressure will ease. And THEN it'll all be for us sport fishermen.

Or we could heavily enforce scientifically backed restrictions on fishing with SEVERE penalties that are usually associated with destroying things that arent replaceable. I am not saying that this IS the answer, just that there are many options the world community has. In the past extremely important topics have been overcome by humanity; why not this one?

Im not against fisheries per se, but I think many times they offer a false sense of security in that in some cases (ie atlantic salmon fisheries) they can actually harm the ecology of the ocean beyond the species being farmed.

 

[smellzlikefish]

Now we are getting into a whole new can of worms. Aquaculture had closed the life cycle of the American (Maine) Lobster in an economically feasible way, but the fishing community didn't like the competition and lobbied. The result was extra fees/taxes for the aquaculturists and subsidies for the fishermen which brought the price of wild caught lobster down to where aquacultured lobster was no longer cheaper. I envision this is a story that will repeat itself. The idea of favoring special interest groups over the long term overall good is called the Tragedy of the Commons and the fishing industry has some powerful lobbyists.

 

[Hank49]

Now we are getting into a whole new can of worms. Aquaculture had closed the life cycle of the American (Maine) Lobster in an economically feasible way, but the fishing community didn't like the competition and lobbied. The result was extra fees/taxes for the aquaculturists and subsidies for the fishermen which brought the price of wild caught lobster down to where aquacultured lobster was no longer cheaper. I envision this is a story that will repeat itself. The idea of favoring special interest groups over the long term overall good is called the Tragedy of the Commons and the fishing industry has some powerful lobbyists.

Lobster isn't a real good example but I know what you're talking about. If lobster could be produced cheaply, the SE Asians would be doing it and not giving a **** about the NE lobster guys. But it's real expensive because they're really cannibalistic and you have to isolate one animal per small cage. Way worse than macrobrachium.
But there was a stink a few years back with the shrimp trawlers. I forget the details but they either got subsidized or had a tax slapped on imported shrimp for a while. part of their argument was the use of antibiotics in shrimp also.
I wonder what they will say about the oil spill and possible effects on shrimp from there?
But shrimp culture rolls on and will put them out of business. The Thais are unbelievable now. 4 grams per week growth, super intensive systems that use 0 water exchange. Reusing the water so little waste. Low FCR and low protein feeds due to the bacterial flock systems they employ.
Soon there will be integrated systems with bi valves, fish and shrimp.