Son of Deep Stops *or* Waiting to be merged with the mother thread...

[lowviz]

That's sarcasm, right? ...

Yeah, maybe even worse, more like a landmine type of humor. I could have vigorously defended that or easily refuted it. The inner working of molecular machinery vs. "isolating co-factors".

-seemed to fit well in this thread...

 

[dmaziuk]

Yet you ask for data points... "we got a bunch of divers doing a bunch of dives and some later claimed they had niggles" is about as good as I'd expect.

 

[lowviz]

Without a good man-study that satisfies Ross, the model remains theoretical IMHO. Yes, I ask for data points.

What presently confuses me is that VGE's are discounted, but all other tissues are in play. Does that indicate that bubble kinetics (rate of growth/collapse) are different for each compartment in VPM-B? I've been trying to stay away from the model's inner workings and just focus on end result. Not having much luck with that...

 

[Storker]

In the human data I presented there showing a correlation of VGR grade with incidence of DCS, how big a difference is there in the number of actual pulmonary DCS cases and your contention they were all pulmonary DCS?

With a proper p-value, if you please.

 

[Storker]

That's sarcasm, right?

Gotta be. If there's something that hardly ever is "tight and tidy", it's "biological"

 

[David Doolette]

Yes, in this instance just to make a point.
Such is my suspicion, but I have no way of knowing what the noise is in that table. A 5 minute NDL is good from 150' to 200' in that table. Hmmm. Is that just a Navy "run down there and retrieve something" thing, or is it based on trials?

Returning briefly to the topic of the thread, those are the old 1957 no-stop limits, we retained those in USN Diving Manual, Rev 6, but they will be replaced in Rev 7. The reason they are all 5 minutes, is because back when the 1957 tables were constructed, computing power was limited. The original set were computed on a UNIVAC, and the post-trial revision was computed by hand. The story is of a row of sailors each doing part of the calculation. Schedules were calculated for 5-minute increments of BT up to 30 minutes, and 10- minute increment thereafter. The no-stop times were not calculated directly, but are the longest BT that did not have any required stops.

There were about 609 man dived done in development of those tables. Typically only 4 or 6 dives per schedule tested.

David

 

[rjack321]

What do you want to know? You can search on most of it now. Its purpose is to document tech practices. We did not collect outcomes, because we have DAN PDE for that.

A second system was tied into the above data base with the DAN PDE survey reporting system, and divers were required to give outcome surveys to that. 7% of divers records were submitted with reports to DAN PDE.

.

I want to know if the hit rate in that "database" is 5%, 1.6%, something bigger or in between or whatever.

But I already know you don't collect that data and you could never get an institutional review board to approve the collection of medical data from unwitting computer purchasers anyway.

And what information you do collect about outcomes has massive selection bias. If anyone is peddling misinterpreted junk science with no peer review or publication at all here its you.

 

[oya]

And what information you do collect about outcomes has massive selection bias.

At DEMA last year I sat in on the BW and TO'L presentation on RGBM. Tim started going on about how they had data collected on something like 200,000 dives over 20 years and not one instance of DCS.

I quietly (and from the back of the room, having prepared for such a possibility) stood up and left at that very moment in the talk thinking, "Nothing interesting to learn here!"

 

[rjack321]

At DEMA last year I sat in on the BW and TO'L presentation on RGBM. Tim started going on about how they had data collected on something like 200,000 dives over 20 years and not one instance of DCS.

I quietly (and from the back of the room, having prepared for such a possibility) stood up and left at that very moment in the talk thinking, "Nothing interesting to learn here!"

It's just great, its the biggest database, the best database.

 

[scubadada]

I've been looking forward to more information from DAN's Project Dive Exploration for a long time, hope it's soon. From DAN's website:

Database of Dive Exposure and Dive Outcomes
DAN has obtained data from the U.S. Navy, Duke University, Project Dive Exploration (including DAN Europe's Dive Safety Lab) and the Institute of Nautical Archaeology. Data are being converted to a format that will be used as a reference database for calibration and evaluation of decompression algorithms. Divers using one of many compatible dive computers may contribute their electronic dive log data to PDE.

Database of Dive Exposure and Dive Outcomes
Study information is coming soon. For more information, contact DAN Research.