Son of Deep Stops *or* Waiting to be merged with the mother thread...

[rjack321]

As a toxicologist and risk assessor, if I ever cited someone's published work and got 'corrected' in a forum by the original authors I'd be mortified. Especially if I continued to misrepresent that author over and over.

Ross, what little credibility you "had" left went away when you started citing and arguing with the guy who wrote the paper telling him he doesn't understand what it means...

You just noticed this behavior? That started somewhere back in 2014 on another board in another long since closed thread.

 

[ajduplessis]

Here's what I don't understand, Ross: VPM-B is based off of zero man-testing,.

Many human dives are executed yearly utilising VPM-B without incident, not sure what you are on about.

 

[rossh]

Ross, what little credibility you "had" left went away when you started citing and arguing with the guy who wrote the paper telling him he doesn't understand what it means...

But you don't have the paper in front of you to look at... so...... You don't know what is says.

Conclusion:

VGE grades are an imperfect surrogate endpoint for DCS and using VGE data must be interpreted cautiously. VGE cannot be used to diagnose DCS, but can be used a for comparisons of decompression procedures in samples of subjects. Whereas a significant difference in VGE grade probably indicates a difference in pDCS, failure to find a significant difference in VGE grades does not necessarily indicate no difference in pDCS.




See.. same old conclusion that's on the bottom of most VGE tests... It works just a little bit, but not enough to be useful in any meaningful way.


And that's the problem .. VGE add nothing to the accuracy of deco planning or modelling. The only sure measure is profile stress through tissue pressure levels. Nothing has proven to be as accurate as this.


All this fussing over VGE - its like reading tea leaves. When are we going to face up to the fact that VGE cannot do the job of proper deco planning or risk avoidance?. And then quit trying to invent uses for this vague and hopeless measure


.

 

[Patoux01]

But you don't have the paper in front of you to look at... so...... You don't know what is says.

Which article would we not have? Most, if not all, articles cited by either Simon or David are available in 3 clicks to pretty much anyone (that is sort of the point of published papers).

Currently having in front of me, within 5 minutes of reading your post (and taking time to look up which papers you might be talking about):
Mollerløkken A, Blogg SL, Doolette DJ, Nishi RY, Pollock NW. Consensus guidelines for the use of ultrasound for diving research. Diving Hyperb Med 2016;46:26-32 here

Doolette DJ. Venous gas emboli detected by two-dimensional echocardiography are an imperfect surrogate for decompression sickness. Diving Hyperb Med 2016;46:4-10

Gerth WA, Ruterbusch VL, Long ET. The influence of thermal exposure on diver susceptibility to decompression sickness. Technical Report. Panama City (FL): Navy Experimental Diving Unit; 2007 Nov. Report No.: NEDU TR 06-07 here

Redistribution of decompression stop time from shallow to deep stops increases incidence of decompression sickness in air decompression dives. Technical Report. Panama City (FL): Navy Experimental Diving Unit; 2011 Jul. 53 p. Report No.: NEDU TR 11-06. here

I purposedly did not add the "VGE detected by 2-d echocardiography" link, as I'm not sure I am allowed to post it because the version I found has written "for personal use only" on it.


Edit: I'll add that I'm happy to remove the links should I not be allowed legally to set them here.

 

[rossh]

Which article would we not have? Most, if not all, articles cited by either Simon or David are available in 3 clicks to pretty much anyone (that is sort of the point of published papers).

Currently having in front of me, within 5 minutes of reading your post (and taking time to look up which papers you might be talking about):
Mollerløkken A, Blogg SL, Doolette DJ, Nishi RY, Pollock NW. Consensus guidelines for the use of ultrasound for diving research. Diving Hyperb Med 2016;46:26-32 here

Doolette DJ. Venous gas emboli detected by two-dimensional echocardiography are an imperfect surrogate for decompression sickness. Diving Hyperb Med 2016;46:4-10

Gerth WA, Ruterbusch VL, Long ET. The influence of thermal exposure on diver susceptibility to decompression sickness. Technical Report. Panama City (FL): Navy Experimental Diving Unit; 2007 Nov. Report No.: NEDU TR 06-07 here

Redistribution of decompression stop time from shallow to deep stops increases incidence of decompression sickness in air decompression dives. Technical Report. Panama City (FL): Navy Experimental Diving Unit; 2011 Jul. 53 p. Report No.: NEDU TR 11-06. here

I purposedly did not add the "VGE detected by 2-d echocardiography" link, as I'm not sure I am allowed to post it because the version I found has written "for personal use only" on it.


Edit: I'll add that I'm happy to remove the links should I not be allowed legally to set them here.

Doolette DJ. Venous gas emboli detected by two-dimensional echocardiography are an imperfect surrogate for decompression sickness. Diving Hyperb Med 2016;46:4-10

You need to be subscribed to the DHM to get this one.

 

[Patoux01]

As you could see from my previous message:
"I purposedly did not add the "VGE detected by 2-d echocardiography" link, as I'm not sure I am allowed to post it because the version I found has written "for personal use only" on it."
This means it is fairly easy to find, as it took me less than 2 minutes.
Is this sufficient proof of "I have the article in front of me" ?

 

[Storker]

I'll add that I'm happy to remove the links should I not be allowed legally to set them here.

If these links go to open access articles on the journals' websites, I can't see any legal problems. On the contrary, the whole point of open access publications is to make the research available to the public, not only to subscribers.

 

[Dr Simon Mitchell]

Many human dives are executed yearly utilising VPM-B without incident, not sure what you are on about.

This observation of itself adds no value to this debate. The outcomes of most dives utilising VPM-B are not recorded anywhere. You have no way of knowing the incidence of DCS associated with using this algorithm, or any valid means of comparing it with another.

But you don't have the paper in front of you to look at... so...... You don't know what is says.

Conclusion:

VGE grades are an imperfect surrogate endpoint for DCS and using VGE data must be interpreted cautiously. VGE cannot be used to diagnose DCS, but can be used a for comparisons of decompression procedures in samples of subjects. Whereas a significant difference in VGE grade probably indicates a difference in pDCS, failure to find a significant difference in VGE grades does not necessarily indicate no difference in pDCS.

Yet another example of quoting something that one of us contributed to writing and which you claim argues against us. In fact, this conclusion articulates exactly the points we have been making. In particular: "VGE can be used for comparisons of decompression procedures in samples of subjects".

Also Ross, by way of a reminder, could you explain how VPM B/E+5 is sanctioned whilst VPM B+7 is considered "fake" even though they produce very similar profiles for some dives.

Simon M

 

[rossh]

This observation of itself adds no value to this debate. The outcomes of most dives utilising VPM-B are not recorded anywhere. You have no way of knowing the incidence of DCS associated with using this algorithm, or any valid means of comparing it with another.



Yet another example of quoting something that one of us contributed to writing and which you claim argues against us. In fact, this conclusion articulates exactly the points we have been making. In particular: "VGE can be used for comparisons of decompression procedures in samples of subjects".

Also Ross, by way of a reminder, could you explain how VPM B/E+5 is sanctioned whilst VPM B+7 is considered "fake" even though they produce very similar profiles for some dives.

Simon M

VPM-B, and its mimics such as ZHL GF, was widely used for a decade - the record of which exists any number of research articles of treatment histories. You have said as much in the many talks you make on this deep stop on gas fallacy arguments of late.

We have our own database of 146,000 dive records (no outcomes), and the DAN PDE system has a direct copy record of 7% of those, with full outcome surveys.


****

SIMON ASKED: "....by way of a reminder, could you explain how VPM B/E+5 is sanctioned whilst VPM B+7 is considered "fake" even though....."


Answer:


VPM-B/E is published and used widely since 2004: info (Note: it won't make a Nedu A2 profile either).

+7 is not available, or used anywhere. It was entirely made up by ... and ..., to fabricate an non-existent data point, to make invalid comparisons with, for the sole purpose of inventing a connection between VPM-B and the shallow Nedu trail profiles. It's a clear attempt to deceive the public, and an attribution that does not exist. As a science person trying to make valid argument, I would think you would be ashamed of any association to such underhanded tactics.

.

 

[Storker]

We have our own database of 146,000 dive records, and the DAN PDE system has a direct copy record of 7% of those.

So why don't you publish the data?