Some days are harder than others

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Yes 100 dives in 1 year may very well not be near the same experience as 100 dives in 3 years. It is the experiences that happen throughout that are very important. The varying conditions. The issues with gear both above and below water. Watching a variety of other divers actions and attitudes etc. As a mainly Florida diver I am NOT even remotely qualified to do a complex technical dive in the Northeast. I would need additional skills which also translate into experiences. Discipline tells me this, not impatience. It is the variety of what happens in the dives that creates the knowledge needed, not 100 dives in a year. The reflection of previous dives, the applied knowledge from multiple dives and all other things being used to form your sphere of knowledge. These things are what is important.

Another thread you should read is: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/passings/515870-twenty-three-years-rouses.html

Then lookup the previous 22 years of a similar thread. I have read these since 1995 on a yearly basis. They helped form understanding of the seriousness that is technical diving.

I would recommend reading the books, The Last Dive and maybe Deep Descent to get an appreciation of what it means to do technical diving.

To improve mine, I have sought multiple different instructors and listened to all of them during my training path. I have trained with a diver that was on the Rouses' boat that day and heard his stories about that and other dives that have ended tragically. I have sat on the surface with an instructor after making a relatively minor mistake on a deco ascent, listening to him describe how he has lost SEVERAL friends doing technical dives, I appreciated his statements and will never forget it. I saw the expression on his face of sincere sadness at the losses as he saw their faces. All of this is to improve my overall experience level. I remember that on EACH of my technical dives, that if there is a tragedy (my death), my family will suffer my loss as well as financial hardship because it WILL NOT be cover under any life insurance. I waited years to learn so I could make sure my family was financially sound enough to survive my loss if it was technical and therefore not covered by my life insurance policy. We have talked frankly about the risks and rewards of technical diving.

All of us here do not want to read of your passing especially with an impatient approach to entering the technical world that is displayed. We do not want more deaths that are avoidable.
 
Let me say this from one new diver with technical aspirations to a next... i am all for early training... I don't believe number of dives should be used as a gauge to determine if technical training is necessary... i do see attitude and aptitude as being the driving factors...

From your first post many have observed that maybe you are not ready... this is not something they are now pulling out of the air its based on your account... i think it would be prudent to listen to the guys that have been in it for years. I think i'm ready for tech I have 110 dives, only 9 are training dives, almost half of them unguided, i think i have the right attitude, DM's and instructors alike comment on my excellent diving ability, a tech instructor begged me to take a class with him because i would be an easy student... and still if i post a situation i was in on this board, and others with vastly more experience than me made recommendations... i would seriously consider what they are saying instead of just defending myself
 
I think some of y'all are doing me a disservice. Is there anything wrong with wanting to get some training on diving doubles before starting to dive doubles?
No, there is not. Hopefully, you will not let some of the blow back get in the way of analyzing the various good suggestions that are being made.

There are many ways to learn. You have outlined what works best, for YOU. And, that is how you should proceed. I personally favor a bit of a 'DIY, followed by formal training' approach for most things. But that doesn't make me right (or wrong, either). That is just what works, for ME. My first drysuit dive was #31. My first doubles dive was #194, and my first tec training dive was #198. That worked for me. It may not be the best approach for anyone else. For me, becoming proficient with buoyancy and trim in a drysuit was the more 'critical' factor. I openly posted after my initial tec training that having a level of comfort and skill with my drysuit BEFORE taking tec was critical, and that diving doubles for several weeks BEFORE starting saved me a lot of heartache. Of course, I am sure someone would criticize me for, and say that jumping off a boat 25 miles off the NC coast, in a wetsuit and a set of double 120s, without any formal 'training', was a bad idea. Hey, it worked, quite well, in fact.
Yes, I want to do it all, and right now.
And, to that I would say, 'Good for you!' I have worked with a number of divers who immediately became addicted after their OW certification, and wanted to 'do it all'. One diver, in particular, went from OW to DM in a year (and did a d*** good job in DM training), who then went into cave, and developed skills that I, as her (former) instructor, stand in awe of, quite frankly. She set her mind to it, and by golly she did it, and did it well (and still does). Some people are simply precocious. Bless them.

You started this thread with an acknowledgement of the difficulties you encountered on your first weekend of AN + DP. Thanks for your openess. Several people have commented on your weighting. I started my tec course diving a drysuit and a set of double HP120s, with a SS backplate and a Halcyon Explorer 55 lb wing. With that configuration I still added 4 lbs of lead. So, to me, adding 18 lbs seems like a lot. But, our body masses are probably different. Use your newly acquired doubles skills to work on getting that added weight down. but, don't let any of us tell you - from afar, in our armchairs - it is 'too much', 'too little', or 'just right', unless you are preparing for the lead role in 'Goldilocks and the Three Sea Serpents'. All we can share is what works for US. Take some of the very good advice being offered, to be sure that you do a proper weight check. Tobin has offered some good ideas on that, as have others. By the way, I didn't find that the wide (and it really is) Explorer wing taco'ed to any significant extent. In fact, you may find that a wider wing offers just a bit more stability around the longitudinal axis. What I found, was that the 120s were long enough to affect my position around my lateral axis - I often ended up in a 'foot low' position.

One bottom line of all this, and I think you already know it, is that practice, practice, and more practice, followed by subsequent practice, are ultimately the best ticket to improvement. I still use EVERY (and, I mean, every single) dive - be it purely recreational, or instructional, or technical, to practice something, because I am not perfect in anything I do underwater. And, honestly, I have a good deal more experience than many, but definitely not as much as some, and nowhere near as much as I need, want, and will continue to strive to accrue. All that experience merely tells me that I need more (and more, and more) experience.

You are right, I have no 'personal knowledge' of your instructor, and I only have your recitation of what you are being told, taught, or directed to do. So, I won't criticize or presume. Moreover, you are also right - I have never seen you dive, or met you in person. What I do know from your SB posts, is that you are someone who has a real enthusiasm for learning everything you can about diving, and you are someone who speaks their mind readily, and sometimes changes opinions as you gain experience (something which we all should be able to do). There is nothing wrong with that.

So, now that you feel a bit more comfortable with your doubles, go out and work on your weighting, your buoyancy, your trim. It doesn't come over-night, or over-week, or over-year for that matter. And, you will (hopefully) make mistakes and do things that are dumb - we learn best from our mistakes. What matters is that YOU come to realize they are dumb mistakes, rather than having one of us arbitrarily suggest it.

And, by the way, I agree with the title of you first post - some days really ARE harder than others. I still have what I consider to be 'bad' days. Students may not see it, other divers may not see it, bit I see it. And, it frustrates me. But, there is always another diving dawn (OK, a cheesy paraphrase of a great book by a really great pilot, Scott Crossfield).
 
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I started my tec course diving a drysuit and a set of double HP120s, with a SS backplate and a Halcyon Explorer 55 lb wing. With that configuration I still added 4 lbs of lead. So, to me, adding 18 lbs seems like a lot.

To be clear, I was diving with my SS BP (6 #) + 8 # bolt-on weights. My TOTAL was 14 # - so, 4 # more than what you said. I have been diving with an additional 4 # (total of 18 #) when diving a single 120.

Next time out, I'm going to start by splitting the difference and using my BP (with no bolt-on weights) and a weight belt with 4 # on it - i.e. exactly the same as you described for yourself.

I clicked Thanks, but I just want to re-iterate: Thank you for your post. I really appreciate that you seem to "get" where I'm at and are not giving me a hard time! :D
 
Those that are giving you a "hard" time do so in the interest of you not becoming a statistic. It is all good advice altough you may not like the tone. There is some skills that need to be mastered prior to considering a tech course. Buoyancy is one of them. It should be second nature. This allows you too handle any problems with out compounding it. Think of the worst scenario you can think off. Could you handle it with ease? Murphy loves to go diving. He may join you on your first deco dive. He may not ever. But when he does your skill your experience is what may be the difference between life or death. One thing my ANDP course taught me was my skill deficiency when multitasking. I felt confident in my skills till I had to perform 2 or 3 at a time. Moving forward i always try to task load myself on fun dives to better see my mistakes and improve. After and before classes you really need to be honest with yourself as to what your level is and where it should be. Also knowing just because i have the card to do it doesnt mean i should always.
 
To be clear, I was diving with my SS BP (6 #) + 8 # bolt-on weights. My TOTAL was 14 # - so, 4 # more than what you said. I have been diving with an additional 4 # (total of 18 #) when diving a single 120.

Next time out, I'm going to start by splitting the difference and using my BP (with no bolt-on weights) and a weight belt with 4 # on it - i.e. exactly the same as you described for yourself.

I clicked Thanks, but I just want to re-iterate: Thank you for your post. I really appreciate that you seem to "get" where I'm at and are not giving me a hard time! :D

*Everything* you take into the water that does not float is ballast.

What is the empty buoyancy number on your cylinders? Spun 3500 psi tanks tend to be quite negative.

Let's assume your tanks are -4 each empty

2 x tanks = -8

Bands and manifold -4

Dual regs - 4

SS Plate and harness -6

Bolt on weights -8

Total ~-30 lbs (if my numbers on your tanks are close)

Is your Drysuit +30 lbs? If you don't know test it and find out.

Tobin
 
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