Snorkeler Killed by Sharks in the Bahamas

[JohnnyC]

CAT or SOFT-T tourniquet, not a RATS.

Here's the current CoTCCC recommendations.

CoTCCC Recommended Devices & Adjuncts

 

[Snoweman]

I'm back. I know..., I'm too stupid... there is no winning this debate, but I feel an unnatural need to clear some things up.

So, just a couple of points about our biology that are hopefully enlightening.

1. Over the course of an entire day, menstrual fluid is at most a few milliliters, even on heavy days. For you non-scientists, that is a TINY amount and it is also mostly not blood, but water and cells from the uterine lining. See the link in my prior post for perspective on what that means diluted in a pool, much less the ocean.

I do not know the flow of all woman during their periods, but I do know a few women and have been in their company enough to know their experience. The amount of flow is not a straight line average (for the women I know). It may be more of a Bell curve and for others it starts off heavy and tapers off.

I wanted to know how much blood was in a vial when they collect for testing. My reasoning was thinking about how the commercials show a half of glass of water is poured into a pad to show absorbency. I asked a lab technician that deals in phlebotomy I know this question. I got my reply and was asked if it helped.

I explained that I about my posts and the subsequent reply – specifically about the amount of blood excreted during a typical period. This was the response I got:

“Take it from me, that guy is ignorant. I dropped 1-2 grams every month and that's about equivalent to a unit of blood or a little more. Not all women bleed the average of a couple of tablespoons!” I quickly explained I was in contention with two women (to clear up her misconception). What astonished me was her volume of flow. It's not a few milliliters in a day. Her experience is substantial...

2. MOST WOMEN STOP MENSTRUATING IN THE WATER. Being submerged causes the vaginal opening to close, so fluids aren't moving in or out. For this reason, some of us don't even bother with cups or tampons when swimming or diving. (Cups are not too common and tampon strings can wick in seawater, which can mess up pH and cause irritation over the course of multiple dives). This also means being "surprised" is irrelevant.

I don't know about “most women”, but I do know that this is not true for all women. I could understand it about diving (pressure) or really cold water (most guys know about “shrinkage”), but I know from personal experience. I also asked my female lab tech friend, and she disagreed with this supposition, too.

As more and more women participate in water sports, there will be more incidents involving women. But hopefully we can avoid discouraging or frightening women from participating because of periods. Most of us DO swim, snorkel, and dive with our periods and it isn't and shouldn't be a limitation.

I get amazed when all the website pages say this can't be tested until a woman having a period gets in the water with sharks. This could very easily be tested with a woman being protected from any sort of attack, or just a simulation. I would think it would be in the best interest for women to have this theory not “debunked” because we say so, but to run actual tests.

 

[DBPacific]

Nice explanation, DBPacific. But I'll disagree about moving this to a PM or the women's thread. I think it IS respectful to this and other women that we clear up misconceptions in a place where males will see the info. We've got men who think women actually swim with pads, so there's clearly a long way to go. Why do guys even need to know or care? Well, until they understand, we end up with posts that imply that "maybe she had her period and shouldn't have been in the water." So I think we need to be as open about this as discussions of whether feeding sharks, swimming alone, being at the surface or underwater, etc. were contributing factors, especially if the proposed factor suggests women should maybe stay out of the water if they have their period.

So, just a couple of points about our biology that are hopefully enlightening.

1. Over the course of an entire day, menstrual fluid is at most a few milliliters, even on heavy days. For you non-scientists, that is a TINY amount and it is also mostly not blood, but water and cells from the uterine lining. See the link in my prior post for perspective on what that means diluted in a pool, much less the ocean.

2. MOST WOMEN STOP MENSTRUATING IN THE WATER. Being submerged causes the vaginal opening to close, so fluids aren't moving in or out. For this reason, some of us don't even bother with cups or tampons when swimming or diving. (Cups are not too common and tampon strings can wick in seawater, which can mess up pH and cause irritation over the course of multiple dives). This also means being "surprised" is irrelevant.

As more and more women participate in water sports, there will be more incidents involving women. But hopefully we can avoid discouraging or frightening women from participating because of periods. Most of us DO swim, snorkel, and dive with our periods and it isn't and shouldn't be a limitation.

A fair point, but I'll still try to make this brief. Last time I started talking to someone about misconceptions, I got in trouble because the convo diverged from the original topic and was taking up a lot of space. @chairman please move this to the women's thread if it gets too much. I have no idea how to do it.

Now, then.

I'm back. I know..., I'm too stupid... there is no winning this debate, but I feel an unnatural need to clear some things up.



I do not know the flow of all woman during their periods, but I do know a few women and have been in their company enough to know their experience. The amount of flow is not a straight line average (for the women I know). It may be more of a Bell curve and for others it starts off heavy and tapers off.

I wanted to know how much blood was in a vial when they collect for testing. My reasoning was thinking about how the commercials show a half of glass of water is poured into a pad to show absorbency. I asked a lab technician that deals in phlebotomy I know this question. I got my reply and was asked if it helped.

I explained that I about my posts and the subsequent reply – specifically about the amount of blood excreted during a typical period. This was the response I got:

“Take it from me, that guy is ignorant. I dropped 1-2 grams every month and that's about equivalent to a unit of blood or a little more. Not all women bleed the average of a couple of tablespoons!” I quickly explained I was in contention with two women (to clear up her misconception). What astonished me was her volume of flow. It's not a few milliliters in a day. Her experience is substantial...



I don't know about “most women”, but I do know that this is not true for all women. I could understand it about diving (pressure) or really cold water (most guys know about “shrinkage”), but I know from personal experience. I also asked my female lab tech friend, and she disagreed with this supposition, too.



I get amazed when all the website pages say this can't be tested until a woman having a period gets in the water with sharks. This could very easily be tested with a woman being protected from any sort of attack, or just a simulation. I would think it would be in the best interest for women to have this theory not “debunked” because we say so, but to run actual tests.

I am for sure an inexperienced diver but I am not inexperienced in getting a period. We're not trying to tell you you're outright stupid, but you are putting forward an awful lot of misconceptions and we women are trying to put you straight. Trust me, we deal enough with men saying incorrect things about periods with all the authority and confidence of a clownfish trying to scare a diver away. It gets a bit tiring, especially as so many politicians and men in power also make laws and decisions affecting us that are based on misconceptions, so I apologize for coming across sharp and for the others. That's where we're coming from.

You are correct that the amount of flow varies. I had very heavy periods, the other women in my family get very light periods. Don't know about a Bell curve, but I'd be interested to read scientific papers on the topic.

...if your friend is dropping a unit of blood, and since you didn't detail exactly how much a unit is I will assume it's like a hospital unit of blood, then take her to the damn emergency room. That ain't normal. 1 gram of blood is about 1.05 mL of blood. It isn't that heavy. Also, if your friend is only dropping 2.1 mL of blood a month, she's either on birth control or has another medical issue, take her to the hospital. For comparison, a Diva cup (type of menstrual cup) has a capacity of about 30mL, which really isn't a lot. On my heaviest days both pre and during birth control, I bleed about 30-50 mL that day. However, period blood isn't just blood. It's also mucus and tissue, which raises the volume, so I'm probably actually bleeding a bit less than my cup says. That's a decently heavy period, and that amount of flow only lasts for 1-3 days, then goes to about 10mL of blood for 1-4 days.

How Much Blood Do You Lose on Your Period?

Bleeding doesn't stop in the water, but in general, it does decrease, a fact which has saved my bacon in my earlier periods when they hadn't calmed down into a predictable cycle and I found out that I was on my period after swimming.

In regards to testing - I can assure you that women have snorkeled, swam, and dove with sharks in the vicinity on their periods. Like I said before, a woman on her period isn't using a pad that will end up doing nothing but feel like a wet diaper. If a shark can sense blood before it enters the water, then no one is safe. On a more TMI note (sorry everyone), I personally am bleeding every time I snorkel, swim, or dive anywhere. The type of birth control I'm on gives me the side effect of spotting/bleeding pretty much 24/7, which is why I'm always wearing a cup. Usually it isn't near my normal period levels, but will fluctuate from 5-30mL a day (again, based on the fill level of my cup). I am an inexperienced diver, but I've snorkeled a handful of times and dove at least 24 times where I knew for certain a shark was nearby because I could see them. On only one dive did a shark show any interest whatsoever in my buddy group, and on that time it was a guitar shark who kept following and bumping into one of my buddies who stayed quite a bit ahead of me. It showed no interest in me or any of the other girls, I know for a fact that the girl it did seem to follow wasn't on her period (we'd talked about periods not long before the dive). Of course, that isn't very many repetitions in a study, but those are only the dives where I saw the shark nearby.

On another note, period blood isn't like normal blood. It's filled with mucus and tissue and it smells very different than blood from a cut on your arm. It also generally doesn't spread in water as quickly because of the mucus. I'd be surprised if a shark couldn't smell the difference.
​

 

[potato cod]

Without getting into the details of experimental and observational studies and the types of conclusions we draw from them, suffice it to say the relevant test, although not an experiment, is based on observational evidence. Hundreds (probably thousands but I don't have hard numbers) of women swim, snorkel, and dive with their period in the ocean EVERY DAY and are not attacked or singled out by sharks. So the problem is clearly not being in the water with your period or we'd have lots of issues.

The way I see it, the problem is rather that when an unfortunate attack happens to a woman, we second guess her being in the water even though there is no credible evidence for doing this.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

This is what I love most about the quality of internet "investigations" into, specifically, diving accidents:

1. Extensive discussion here (and I've only skimmed the posts) about a connection between shark feeding and the attack even though there's not been any documentation (at least none that I've seen) about shark feeding going on anywhere nearby the attack site.
2. Extensive discussion about the connection between the attack and menstrual flow, even though there's been no documentation or evidence to show that occurred, let alone factors in.
3. And on that same note . . .
ATTENTION MANSPLAINERS: Perhaps men shouldn't be the ones explaining about the ins and outs of a woman's monthly period. (Just sayin'.)

One common thread between this and many other attacks is that the victim was on or near the surface (or in shallow water). Studies have shown that the vibrations sent out by snorkelers/surfers/waders/etc. splashing on the surface closely mimic those of a wounded fish. The shark senses the vibrations and tries to find the source. When it does, it initiates a "test bite" to see what what's. Many times, that's the only bite. Sometimes, it's a fatal bite.

My PERSONAL GUESS is that the first bite - and perhaps what severed the arm - was by a Tiger. I'm AGAIN GUESSING/SPECULATING that the other two sharks mentioned were nearby, likely NOT Tigers, and simply reacted to the commotion in the water.

- Ken

 

[drrich2]

Since the 'human blood might trigger a shark attack' thing is obviously a point of concern with some, a little quick Googling turned this up - Are Sharks Attracted by Human Blood at some site called SpotMyDive.com. It was tested in the Bahamas. Looks like reef sharks, not tiger sharks, but there was a lot more than a few ml of human blood.

The lack of reaction to human blood was fairly reassuring (though the barracuda offering triggered a very different reaction). This doesn't definitely prove anything, but I think it's still relevant.

 

[Joneill]

Since the 'human blood might trigger a shark attack' thing is obviously a point of concern with some, a little quick Googling turned this up - Are Sharks Attracted by Human Blood at some site called SpotMyDive.com. It was tested in the Bahamas. Looks like reef sharks, not tiger sharks, but there was a lot more than a few ml of human blood.

The lack of reaction to human blood was fairly reassuring (though the barracuda offering triggered a very different reaction). This doesn't definitely prove anything, but I think it's still relevant.

And there’s also this guy:

 

[Dan]

And there’s also this guy:

OK. We can put period debate thingy to rest then.

Floating & splashing like wounded fish could be to blame.

 

[DBPacific]

OK. We can put period debate thingy to rest then.

Thank goodness.

 

[morecowbells]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have an idea of how deep the water was where the attack happened? Is there any chance the snorkel operators feed the pigs to attract them to the snorkelers?