Sidemount VS Backmount in caves

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Larry, how many days did you volunteer building steps at P1?

Ken, I'd have loved to volunteer in the step building project at P1. My dad was a contractor and I spent summers working with him so I know my way around construction work. He also consulted with people on improving their house plans by making the design more materials efficient, and I learned a lot from that as well.

Unfortunately, I live in NC, and the only time we were in the area when construction was underway on a weekend was on a trip where we already had existing obligations.

We have the desire, we just don't have the time or the geography to make working on the steps practical. But time isn't the only thing that makes the steps go up. That takes money. What we have done over the years is donate over $1400 to the NFSA - not counting membership payments and all the purchases at events where we've said "just keep the change" when that change involved a $10 purchase covered with a couple of twenties. I have no control over how the NSFA used that money or where it was allocated, but we've contributed a lot more than I suspect is the average for divers.

I don't really care how much you've donated and I won't ask. I also won't hold your snarky ******* comments against NSFA. But I do think that $1400 plus in donations entitles us to make a ******* comment on a stairs project and how things might be improved in the future. If not, we can certainly donate our money to another worthy cause.

And, as noted above, I'm happy to provide any input into the design of the steps for Madison, and/or review a draft design for possible input on ways to make it more efficient or more side mount friendly.
 
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I am pretty sure that Steve designed the steps at Cow and P1. Not saying that the design is perfect, but there might be a lot more to consider than what you see on the surface. The length of the stair stringers is a limiting factor. Extending out further into the spring would be an additional engineering challenge, requiring a cantilever support. Also, deviation from the existing basic design might get more people involved from the park and raise additional questions. Point is.. steps were mostly replaced "as is" with just a couple improvements.

Also, extending the steps out, would cover more of the open spring area. And I don't think there is a good argument to do that.

Most (or many) of the folks involved in planning, designing and executing these steps ARE sidemount divers, so anyone thinking that this was just BM divers having it "their way" is just wrong, and silly. Sure you might imagine ways this could have been adapted to make sidemount divers more happy, but I really don't see any valid argument that their life is now harder at P1.

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but it you feel passionately about this.. perhaps reach out to the NFSA and get involved in planning AND execution of the next project. (Madison Main Steps, I think).

Addressing the stuff in bold:

The steps are massively over built (intentionally, and with good reason), and cantilevering out another step or two would not have been a problem. However, I agree with you that it creates other issues, such as extending the "overhead" environment. We can't have cave divers surfacing under a wooden step.

I also agree that deviating from the existing basic design can cause other issues, particularly when state parks and accessibility issues are involved. The irony here though is that the designers deviated from the basic design by widening the bottom two steps rather than continuing two steps lower. There are advantages to that, such as a wider level space a diver can turn around on easier, but there are also costs in terms of not ending the steps as close to the water. Unless you're doing a boat there's not much advantage to a foot high face to the stairs.

If they had simply replaced the old stars using the same design, you wound have the negative feedback. As it is, the steps were replaced "mostly" as they were, and that will have people questioning the design changes that were made.

Now, I agree that we don't want to have the part staff involved more than needed in the design approval process, but that also requires due diligence to ensure designs are fully considered and vetted. If the NSFA screws it up, it undermines their ability to have a free hand in future projects.

I'm happy to provide input to the NSFA on any future plans, and I'd have been happy to give suggestions on this design, including the consideration of the design relative to the average water levels and the degree to which the design should accommodate low water levels. However, to be fair the first I heard of the step replacement was the notice that it was starting. I did see and early design for Cow, but it was clearly being treated as close hold information and I never got the impression comments were actively being sought. Public comments are a double edge sword - you can learn a lot form them, but the process can be a pain in the ass and in cave country it invites cave country politics to play a role, something most folks would prefer to avoid.

Finally, you're missing my point on it being "harder" for side mount divers. The design has created a choke point, at least then the water levels are low. It's still clearly do-able for a sidemount diver, but they'll have to rely on the ladders, when they never needed a ladder at all before. Note that one of the posts in this thread references standing around in 104s waiting for SM divers on the ladders. The design added a choke point and back mount divers are going to have to live with the results of that as well.
 
The only time I dove P1 in BM doubles I just did a giant stride off the last step. Easy as pie.
 
Ken, I'd have loved to volunteer in the step building project at P1. My dad was a contractor and I spent summers working with him so I know my way around construction work. He also consulted with people on improving their house plans by making the design more materials efficient, and I learned a lot from that as well.

Unfortunately, I live in NC, and the only time we were in the area when construction was underway on a weekend was on a trip where we already had existing obligations.

We have the desire, we just don't have the time or the geography to make working on the steps practical. But time isn't the only thing that makes the steps go up. That takes money. What we have done over the years is donate over $1400 to the NFSA - not counting membership payments and all the purchases at events where we've said "just keep the change" when that change involved a $10 purchase covered with a couple of twenties. I have no control over how the NSFA used that money or where it was allocated, but we've contributed a lot more than I suspect is the average for divers.

I don't really care how much you've donated and I won't ask. I also won't hold your snarky ******* comments against NSFA. But I do think that $1400 plus in donations entitles us to make a ******* comment on a stairs project and how things might be improved in the future. If not, we can certainly donate our money to another worthy cause.

And, as noted above, I'm happy to provide any input into the design of the steps for Madison, and/or review a draft design for possible input on ways to make it more efficient or more side mount friendly.

So let me see if I get this straight.

You know more about construction of the steps than the people who did the work, even though one of them has been building steps at dive sites longer than you've been cave diving. And you feel entitled to complain because you came into the area and threw your money around. Oh and I'm snarky.

Did I miss anything?
 
I don't hold being an out-of-town person against you. I was in a position to help out for a few days of this project. That gave me a ton of insight as to the planning and work involved in these projects. I learned a ton and feel like I got more out of this than I put in! And props to you for the monetary donation. I certainly appreciate that!

Just try and me a little sensitive when with the Monday-morning quarter backing. There are three people in particular that were out there working for at least 5 weekends IN A ROW. (way more than me). Surely you can get why an "after the fact" complaint is not appreciated.

Finally, you're missing my point on it being "harder" for side mount divers. The design has created a choke point, at least then the water levels are low. It's still clearly do-able for a sidemount diver, but they'll have to rely on the ladders, when they never needed a ladder at all before. Note that one of the posts in this thread references standing around in 104s waiting for SM divers on the ladders. The design added a choke point and back mount divers are going to have to live with the results of that as well.

If a "choke point" was added, it was in the interest of safety. I have personally witnessed quite a few sidemount (& BM) divers getting right into the water without delay. It seems to be the ones that are not squared away, that are having issues.

As to standing around with my doubles.. When I decended the steps, I had no idea the diver on the left was going to be there for an exteneded period of time. Litterally clipping, and unclipping, and moving stuff around. I did politely ask to "slide by" but I am pretty sure he did not speak English, and did not even respond to my comments. Could I have done a giant-stride entry? Perhaps.. But the basin was so mirky that day.. I did not want to risk jumping in where I could not see. Probably a low risk, but I don't want to be responsible for hurting somebody like a ccr diver surfacing with no warning bubbles..

Having a ~12' wide set of steps that ends right at the water with no landing if space for anyone to pass or turn around was brought up as an issue. Remember its not just divers that use these steps. I have a good source that reinforced that it was actually a requirement to maintain the 'footprint', but for a couple added safety features to include the 2nd ladder.

**I will now try to stop with the threadjacking! ...OP, at least you can get some more context on how the SM/BM politics can get people hot under the collar... :)
 
I dive backmount in caves. I don't really see a reason to switch to sidemount since the same gear that I wear for recreational single tank diving, wreck penetration, and cave diving doesn't change. If I decided to go rebreather, I would switch to sidemount because I might as well adapt to both if learning a completely new technology. I watch Richard Dreher's no mount videos and think: 1) Tight cave ... no, thank you. No mount cave ... no way! 2) Chuck Norris would get nervous watching Rich. Edd Sorenson says Bill Main and I will be the last people diving backmount in cave country now that some of the GUE instructors have started down the sidemount path.
 
I dive backmount in caves. I don't really see a reason to switch to sidemount since the same gear that I wear for recreational single tank diving, wreck penetration, and cave diving doesn't change. If I decided to go rebreather, I would switch to sidemount because I might as well adapt to both if learning a completely new technology. I watch Richard Dreher's no mount videos and think: 1) Tight cave ... no, thank you. No mount cave ... no way! 2) Chuck Norris would get nervous watching Rich. Edd Sorenson says Bill Main and I will be the last people diving backmount in cave country now that some of the GUE instructors have started down the sidemount path.
nahh...
 
I don't hold being an out-of-town person against you. I was in a position to help out for a few days of this project. That gave me a ton of insight as to the planning and work involved in these projects. I learned a ton and feel like I got more out of this than I put in! And props to you for the monetary donation. I certainly appreciate that!

Just try and me a little sensitive when with the Monday-morning quarter backing. There are three people in particular that were out there working for at least 5 weekends IN A ROW. (way more than me). Surely you can get why an "after the fact" complaint is not appreciated.

I'd have been happy to Sunday quarterback, or at least be water boy on the team. However, input into these projects and discussion and validation of the final draft of the plans needs to be actively sought. It is not an open system, particularly for those who are not local zip code divers. That is my suggestion moving forward.

I fully understand that the platform was made wider for a reason. But there is still no free lunch. As noted before, I can see advantages to having more room to maneuver around the ladders, turn around, etc. However, the chosen solution has a cost and a downside.

In my experience, there are usually multiple ways to address a problem and the more eyes and brains you have working the problem the greater the potential to identify a solution with minimum downside and an optimum balance for all the end users.
 
So let me see if I get this straight.

You know more about construction of the steps than the people who did the work, even though one of them has been building steps at dive sites longer than you've been cave diving. And you feel entitled to complain because you came into the area and threw your money around. Oh and I'm snarky.

Did I miss anything?

You didn't "miss" anything Ken. You just "mis" quoted and/or took those quotes out of context. My point was Ken I know my way around a saw, and I'm more than willing to help if I'm in town. You also know that, but felt the need to use it as an opportunity to bait someone who you hardly know. That's pretty immature.

I'm starting to think Ken that you are an attention whore.
 
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