Sidemount VS Backmount in caves

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@Caveeagle I haven't seen the new ones yet *it's state bird season down there, not a fan of the mosquitos*, but it shouldn't be an issue for most divers. The problem is when people start sprawling and get inconsiderate with their gear. Unfortunately nothing will really fix that.
 
I am very much in the "it depends on the dive" camp. The cave courses I have taught so far this year have been about 50/50 backmount and sidemount. For my own diving, I will pick the best tool for the job - Backmount, Sidemount or CCR.

Even here in Mexico where Sidemount is very popular, there are still a lot of backmount cave classes being taught. The overwhelming majority of dives conducted here do not require sidemount, outside of sidemount exploration of small cave.

I think it is important that new cave divers are allowed to make an informed choice on the configuration that will be best suited to them and the diving they will be doing. I do find it very disappointing when I hear of students signing up for cave training and not even having a discussion about configuration. No configuration is a panacea!
 
@Caveeagle I haven't seen the new ones yet *it's state bird season down there, not a fan of the mosquitos*, but it shouldn't be an issue for most divers. The problem is when people start sprawling and get inconsiderate with their gear. Unfortunately nothing will really fix that.

My suggestion was to put a sign on the lower stairs reading:
"Any gear left unattended here will be auctioned off immediately to the highest bidder! Proceeds to benefit the NFSA"
*Sign printed in English, Russian, ..and Canadian :) ..At a minimum..
 
I was involved with the rebuilt step project and don't really so how anyone could see the new P1 steps as a downgrade. The lowest 2 steps are now one larger, safer platform that you can actually turn around on. There are now two ladders, .one on both sides. Granted, the spring-side "hand-holds" make it a narrower passage, but I have watched several sm divers get in/out just fine.

The divers I have witnessed blocking passage, were having trouble clipping in while standing on the ladder, and moving stuff around, like they were not really all that squared away in the first place. (Just my opinion).

I'm really not trying to stir the pot here, but if SM is really such as great system, how can you let the new P1 steps defeat you ?

With regard to the bolded text, it would have been more side mount friendly to use the available space at the bottom to go two steps lower toward the water than to make those steps twice as wide. When the water is at its present level, it's a bit of a heave to get a tank up there the way the steps were completed. Two steps lower would have made a big difference, even if it was only 2 steps lower for 6-8 ft in the middle (leaving the steps, higher, wider and easier to turn around on by the ladders).

Side mount is a great system, but what is ideal for back mount entry and exit isn't quite the same as what is ideal for side mount entry and exit. Not better or worse one way or the other - just different.

It's not that they steps will defeat many SM divers, as it's obviously do-able, it's just less efficient as constructed, and with the current low water level. Consequently, until the water comes up near the top of that bottom step, you'll see more divers trying to clip tanks on at the ladder, and you'll see more divers taking tanks off while standing on the ladder. Given the steep pitch, it's also difficult to balance on then ladder while clipping a tank on or off. A little shallower angle would have allowed for a little better balance, so it'll take longer than it could have otherwise.

There are other options for getting in, such as clipping every thing on up above at the benches and then walking down the stairs and giant striding in. However, getting out will still be the chokepoint - and that's an issue when the estimates are that half or slight more than half of all cave divers are now side mount. It'll only get worse with time as more divers switch to side mount.

To be fair, SM divers can still come up the ladder with both tanks on, with a little minor twisting to get through the posts - I've done it and it's not all that hard for physically fit male. On the other hand, eliminating the need to climb in full gear is one reason some divers have opted for side mount, and those diver are not likely to use that option, and some just won't be ABLE to use that option.

At Cow, where you can rack up some fairly significant deco, my preference is to avoid climbing the stairs in full gear anyway. I prefer to take them off, then haul them back to the truck individually when I've just finished a dive with significant deco. With the old pre-steps Cow, the sink and shoreline were very accommodating to SM divers putting tanks on and taking tanks off regardless of water level. To their credit, the folks designing the stairs at Cow did a great job in that respect by adding the platforms on either side of the stairs, which make it very side mount friendly at both high and low water levels.

In that regard, one suggestion that's been made is to follow the lead of what was done at Cow and add a platform to one side of the P1 steps that would allow a place for SM divers to stand or kneel in the water and gear up and/or offer a lower platform to remove tanks when getting out, without blocking the stairs. The area to the right of the P1 stairs (looking toward the sink) would work well. There is in fact a large flat rock there that works fine for that purpose (if you ignore the mud, algae and general ick recently). However it's not a perfect solution as a diver there will be competing for space with anyone using the ladder.

Adding a platform along the edge in that area that would be high enough to be able to still stand on when the water is high average and still under a foot or two of water, or at least be close to the water when the water level is lower than average would solve the major challenges and reduce congestion on the ladders on busy weekends.

Just a suggestion.
 
I am very much in the "it depends on the dive" camp. The cave courses I have taught so far this year have been about 50/50 backmount and sidemount. For my own diving, I will pick the best tool for the job - Backmount, Sidemount or CCR.

Even here in Mexico where Sidemount is very popular, there are still a lot of backmount cave classes being taught. The overwhelming majority of dives conducted here do not require sidemount, outside of sidemount exploration of small cave.

I think it is important that new cave divers are allowed to make an informed choice on the configuration that will be best suited to them and the diving they will be doing. I do find it very disappointing when I hear of students signing up for cave training and not even having a discussion about configuration. No configuration is a panacea!

My advice to divers interested in taking cave training is to use the configuration they are most comfortable with. For some divers that is side mount (although I have yet to encounter a single OW side mount diver who did not require a fairly massive re-work of their configuration to clean it up and make it cave worthy). For other divers back mount doubles make more sense.

I'll work with them in either configuration to get them up to speed prior to class, as Cavern or Intro class is not the time to master a new configuration.

At the cavern, intro and newly minted full cave levels, side mount isn't needed, but if the diver is already side mount proficient it's not an impediment either, and I see no real advantage in requiring back mount prior to side mount cave training. However, once a diver wants to start diving in very tight sidemount passages, an advanced side mount cave class is highly recommended.

We've been side mount for about 7 years now and went to side mount CCR about a year and a half ago. However, I still have a back plate that I primarily use on single tank pretty fish dives with a 30 pound wing. However, I'm more likely to use a Nomad and stabilizing plates with doubles along with my side mount CCR and a stage for offshore tri-mix diving where significant amounts of bailout are just easier to carry in back mount than in a pure side mount configuration.
 
I've noticed a lot more divers in Mexican caves diving sidemount in what you would think of as backmount caves. I'm even seeing more sidemount divers who have never been in a cave.
 
With regard to the bolded text, it would have been more side mount friendly to use the available space at the bottom to go two steps lower toward the water than to make those steps twice as wide. When the water is at its present level, it's a bit of a heave to get a tank up there the way the steps were completed. Two steps lower would have made a big difference, even if it was only 2 steps lower for 6-8 ft in the middle (leaving the steps, higher, wider and easier to turn around on by the ladders).

I am pretty sure that Steve designed the steps at Cow and P1. Not saying that the design is perfect, but there might be a lot more to consider than what you see on the surface. The length of the stair stringers is a limiting factor. Extending out further into the spring would be an additional engineering challenge, requiring a cantilever support. Also, deviation from the existing basic design might get more people involved from the park and raise additional questions. Point is.. steps were mostly replaced "as is" with just a couple improvements.

Also, extending the steps out, would cover more of the open spring area. And I don't think there is a good argument to do that.

Most (or many) of the folks involved in planning, designing and executing these steps ARE sidemount divers, so anyone thinking that this was just BM divers having it "their way" is just wrong, and silly. Sure you might imagine ways this could have been adapted to make sidemount divers more happy, but I really don't see any valid argument that their life is now harder at P1.

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but it you feel passionately about this.. perhaps reach out to the NFSA and get involved in planning AND execution of the next project. (Madison Main Steps, I think).
 
It sucks that people are standing around in heavy double tanks.... if only they had some configuration where they could easily put their tanks down whilst waiting... :D
 
It sucks that people are standing around in heavy double tanks.... if only they had some configuration where they could easily put their tanks down whilst waiting... :D

Haha.. I love it! But as an LSS project consultant, I would point out that you are not addressing the root cause issue. Divers are entering the process, and are not ready to move ahead without creating a bottleneck. If we cannot remove the bottleneck, my best suggestion is to either define an "Exit side left, and Entry side right policy". ..or BM Right, SM left policy.

I know either would be impossible to enforce.. But interesting to think about. :wink:
 
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http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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