sidemount for deep diving?

[mike_s]

I agree completely. Unfortunately one of them won't descend from the mount to bestow his vast wisdom on the little people.

The responses given by superbugman tend to reflect a knowledge is power mindset and seems to alos convey the message that until you know enough to not have to ask, you have no right to know.

Or maybe its just the old issue that sometimes knowing how to do something does not mean you are willing or maybe even able to impart that information to others.
.

I've seen SuPrBugman help many divers with dive/gear knowledge..... He's one of the nicer guys you'll meet also.

I'm sure what he doesn't like doing is wasting his time with people who are smart asses when he's trying to help. Can't say I'd blame him. (those replies to him were moderated from this thread).

 

[SangP]

A potential downside for offshore boat diving is that the tanks are not as secure as in backmount. I am not sure I'd want to hop on and come up a pitching boat ladder in 6-8 ft seas as the less secure and more mobile tanks could cause smoe weight shifting and/or catch on the ladder at a very bad time. An option would be to remove the tanks and have them hauled aboard on a gear line, but that would require some coordination with a willing crew. Depending on the boat, gearing up could be difficult in roiygh weather as well compared to backmount.

I have the same concerns bout sm in rough seas but my biggest concern is strong currents while hanging off the descent/ascent rope. Been on some trips where the current was so strong I was getting banged up pretty bad by the stage bottle while hanging on for dear life. Haven't received any adequate answer bout these concerns.

That's just preventing me from going sm all the way.

SangP

 

[palmm]

i am not sure why some people are critizing me for asking this question. while i do not have the experience of most on this forum, i would like to learn. also both setups are a considerable finanicial contribution. i do not want to dupilcate that expense. lastly i would like to get into cave and deep diving. for those that had something useful thank you. to everyone else stop wasting my time....

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I agree completely. Unfortunately one of them won't descend from the mount to bestow his vast wisdom on the little people.

The responses given by superbugman tend to reflect a knowledge is power mindset and seems to alos convey the message that until you know enough to not have to ask, you have no right to know.

Or maybe its just the old issue that sometimes knowing how to do something does not mean you are willing or maybe even able to impart that information to others.

In any case the OP was clearly not benefitting from the advice being given and was very clear in asking for less ambiguous answers. There was also ample opportunity for someone more knowledgeable to step in long before I spoke up, so being indirectly critical of me for speaking up is frankly pretty effing stupid.

And despite your slam, I don't hear you disagreeing with what I said or suggesting anything different. Feel free to share some of your vast wisdom as well...

The problem as most of us see is that he answered the question, twice. He then after a trollish response told him the cave dictated where he carried them. There was no call for a long drawn out response. If that's the kind of post he needs then maybe he should be taking a sidemount class instead of looking for answers on a forum. I agree with James on his post, bugman has hundreds of cave dives and is on top of his game in sidemount. If we were discussing regs then I know I would be all ears on what you speak.

 

[ScubaSteve]

i am not sure why some people are critizing me for asking this question. while i do not have the experience of most on this forum, i would like to learn. also both setups are a considerable finanicial contribution. i do not want to dupilcate that expense. lastly i would like to get into cave and deep diving. for those that had something useful thank you. to everyone else stop wasting my time....

This really will get you nowhere on an internet board such as ScubaBoard. Remember: You are in their house, not your own. You came into a section asking about a style of diving that is not what your basic open water teaches. Most divers that dive sidemount are doing it for a specific reason pertaining to the diving they are doing (such as cave) and have significant training behind them. They are aware of how dangerous what they do is to the untrained so they get antsy when someone with 0-24 dives showing coming in and asking questions which in their opinion should be known before considering switching from BM to SM. Too often people with no experience come onto a site such as SB, and learn everything they need to know from it. I hope you can see the danger in that and IMO that is what they are trying to avoid by pointing out that some of what you asked for should already be known.

Next time, try opening your post with more qualifications telling them why you are asking questions and explaining the situation more. People will likely be a bit more receptive if they know that you are actually in the right spot mentally. FWIW, I am a BM diver that is not qualified at this point to dive SM but am interested in learning more as I go along so I am here reading. I do think people could have been a bit more open to your question however I see the people that have answered and believe they have only shorted your answers out of concern for the safety of a fellow diver.

Just my $0.02

 

[Rick Murchison]

i am not sure why some people are critizing me for asking this question.

Please don't confuse concern for your safety with "criticism."
There are safe ways to get into doubles and lots of things to consider when buying tech level equipment. There are lots of ways to hurt yourself too. And while the straightforward answers to your original questions about the practicality of sidemount for deep and/or deco dives are "yes" and "yes," the safe answer is "take the TechXR Foundations (or equivalent) course. There you will get an individual equipment consultation session where your diving objectives will be discussed and explored, and your near-term equipment purchase plan developed with informed care and intention to meet your diving future."
Rick

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I have the same concerns bout sm in rough seas but my biggest concern is strong currents while hanging off the descent/ascent rope. Been on some trips where the current was so strong I was getting banged up pretty bad by the stage bottle while hanging on for dear life. Haven't received any adequate answer bout these concerns.

That's just preventing me from going sm all the way.

SangP

I'll start with the disclaimer that others with far more experience could choose to answer answer, but here goes...

There are a couple options.

I have been playing with DR's ring bungees. The intent is to have the weight of the tank supported by metal to metal fittings when walking etc, to prevent what amounts to the tank flopping around on the bungee. The same approach has the same advantage in a very high flow situation as there would then be no give to allow the tank to be pushed aft along your body by the flow.

That said, I have also never had an issue with a sidemounted tank beating me up in high flow with a normal bungee looped over the valve. Entering the eye, the ear or or various high flow spots in Ginnie has not been a problem nor was Madison when it was really flowing. I have not had issues when wedging my way through small holes in very high flow or when pulling up current in high flow even with normal bungees, let alone the ring bungees.

Hanging on an ascent or jon line in a strong 2-3 kt current is not be significantly different and I just don't see it as an issue. Provided the tanks hang level and are not nose down, they will streamline well and should not be banging around. Assuming they are high enough they are also fairly well protected behind the arms/arm pits.

That differs from a traditional stage rig in that you have more options to secure the neck than what is generally used with a normal hog/DIR style stage rig and side mounted tanks tend to ride cleaner than is common for a stage in back mount.

As for carrying a stage in back mount, you will rig it a bit differently but both top mounting and bottom mounting benefit from the position of the side mount tank which tends to stabilize the stage(s) as well and prevent any swinging or undesired movement.

I just don't see that as a problem and any reservations I have with sidemount in offshore diving are limited to the challenges of gearing up on a dive boat in large and rapid waves, where slipping into a back mounted set of doubles while everything is still secure and while still sitting is an option.

 

[ucfdiver]

And despite your slam, I don't hear you disagreeing with what I said or suggesting anything different. Feel free to share some of your vast wisdom as well...

I've only got a few side mount dives, so I know when it's time to shut up and let people who have been doing this for a while answer.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

i am not sure why some people are critizing me for asking this question. while i do not have the experience of most on this forum, i would like to learn. also both setups are a considerable finanicial contribution. i do not want to dupilcate that expense. lastly i would like to get into cave and deep diving. for those that had something useful thank you. to everyone else stop wasting my time....

It's an issue that arises periodically. There are different opinions but I tend to come from the "doubles are not rocket science" school of though, in part as I started diving doubles in 1986 - about 3 months post OW. They were common then and not always associated just with longer deeper dives.

Here, if you mention doubles people fast forward to the concept that you now have enough gas to go really deep or stay long enough to wrack up some serious deco that can get you seriously dead. Pair that with the general lack of knowledge many divers take away from the average OW class and some see doubles as a really bad idea until the diver has appropriate technical training.

I see it a bit differently in that I feel the student will get a lot more out of any technical dive training class if they are comfortabel in doubles and have already mastered the buoyancy, trim and other adjustment issues related to diving doubles. They can then refine those skills in class and more importantly actually learn something in the class other than how to manage the basics of doubles diving.

That said, it is a great idea to take advantage3 of anyone in your area to mentor you and help you transition to doubles and when ready, take advantage of any technical dive training you can find.

The truth is that any real danger that exists, exists regardless of your configuration. You are the person who is potentially prone to making a bad decision or having a lapse in judgement and you need ot be honest in self assessing that. if you have those tendencies, then diving is probably not for you.

The rub us that making those kinds of informed decisions requires a great deal of information and when people start showing "concern" for the safety of others, they often start confusing linmiting access to information with promoting safety. And unfortunatrely limiting access to information prevents the diver from getting the information he or she needs to make a truly informed decision.

The reality also is that proper equipment and technical dive training is not nearly enough to keep you safe. Over the last 25 years I have personally known several divers who I regarded as weak divers despite lots of technical training and solid equipment configuration. Some recognized their limits and dropped out, others went on to overcome those limits and expand their knowledge and ability to become compentent divers. But two of them are died on dives with other divers specifically because they failed to either realize or stay within those limits.

When that happens, you always question whether you should have been more forceful in pointing oput ther limits or discouragin them from pushing their limits, but in the end, it is truly their decision and it is not my place to impose my limits, choices or cautions on someoen else unless they are truly exceeding the bounds of prudent behavior. We all face a chance of death (uually a very remote chance, but still present) on every dive, but the reality is that people have a right to take that risk and the best we can do is ensure they are properly informed of the risk.

And besides, after 25 years, I still know far more divers who have been injured or died in car accidents than on dives, yet I still defy death daily by driving.

So, don't get bent out of shape when well meaning people try to protect your from yourself - it has become part and parcel of daily life. But do be aware that technical diving is a sport that is alays looking for new and creative ways to kill you and that no matter how long you dive and how experienced you get, there is always something waiting to surprise you and always something you don't know that could kill you.

So be prudent, progress slowly, get all the information you can and be sure that when you add a skill, make a change in equipment or set a new personal limit that you take it in very small steps and never make more than one change or addtion at a time to limit the surprises you will encounter.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I've only got a few side mount dives, so I know when it's time to shut up and let people who have been doing this for a while answer.

Providing you with the opportunity to make yourself look like an egotistical and arrogant ass is just an unintended consequence of posting here.

The charitable thought that some day you might develop the maturity or awareness to actually realize that and decide to change is one of the (faint) hopes that keep me posting here.

Sadly, you are also selling yourself short with the "let people have been doing this awhile respond" attitude. You don't need years and years of experience to help others or impart knowledge. Often, a diver who has comparatively recently aquired a skill is in a far better position to dicuss the challenges with some one trying to learn.

Consider military flight instructors - they tend to be ploughbacks from flight training on their first post flight school assignment. They do that for a reason. The same is true (for other reasons) in civilian flight schools.

But in either case what matter is that the instructor can comunicate and teach. With a recently minted instructor the student benefits because the instructor still recalls and understands the challenges of learning the particular skills. The instructor also learns more about flying from teaching than they could ever possibly learn just flying. Imparting knowledge requires you to fully understand the topic and consider it from many different ways in order to effectively discuss it and you learn an awful lot in that process.

But that way of thinking requires people to move away from a strictly authoritarian model where we equate long years of experience in something with skill, knowledge AND the ability or willingness to impart it to others. In fields where strong egos are often part of the mix (cave divers and fighter pilots both come to mind) the authoritatian model does not always work as that same ego can get in the way of teaching or communicating once it is bolstered by all that "vast" experience.