Show some respect... bug hunters at Casino Point

[Rainer]

We agree on this and as such I have not hunted or harvested any marine life for many years. And, I'd be thrilled is no one ever did. On the flip side, I support their right hunt/harvest, within the rules.

I make no bones about it, I have my own selfish reason for keeping hunters out of the park. I want to see more life in it when I'm diving there. So what? Besides, making a comment about the park is a bit NIMBY but then again, most regulations start out somewhere, usually in someones back yard.

I have written CFG more than once and will continue to do so until the the dive park is designated a no-take zone but I will not harass anyone doing it legally. (I may however, ridicule them a little. )

Then you and I are in TOTAL agreement. I, too, would PREFER for no hunting to take place in the park. I just think the way to go about it is to work through the legal system, not through name calling and intimidation. Harassing others isn't going to make a real difference here. The best long term solution is legal change and enforcement, with a strong dose of education (which should start now).

 

[Rainer]

...and who is to determine how much a person "needs" to sustain?

Let's be honest, if you can afford to scuba dive, you pretty much don't need to hunt to survive.

Again, I don't have a problem with others hunting legally, nor do I have a problem with working to make the dive park no-take. I just think it makes little sense to cry foul when someone takes from a spot you care about while you take from a spot I care about. You just lose all reasonable authority in that case to dictate what's "right".

 

[Captain12Pk]

Let's be honest, if you can afford to scuba dive, you pretty much don't need to hunt to survive.

Again, I don't have a problem with others hunting legally, nor do I have a problem with working to make the dive park no-take. I just think it makes little sense to cry foul when someone takes from a spot you care about while you take from a spot I care about. You just lose all reasonable authority in that case to dictate what's "right".

I concur 100%. I just found the sustainance remark interesting.

 

[merxlin]

Then you and I are in TOTAL agreement. I, too, would PREFER for no hunting to take place in the park. I just think the way to go about it is to work through the legal system, not through name calling and intimidation. Harassing others isn't going to make a real difference here. The best long term solution is legal change and enforcement, with a strong dose of education (which should start now).

Yet you have taken me to task several times, when that is exactly what I am promoting: I do not hunt, I believe we need to educate divers about not taking within the park, and I promote and am active in trying to change the legality of hunting in the park.

Part of that education is to try and convince others of the idea's worthyness, which is what we are trying to do here. Then maybe you will also help educate and promote the idea. Your opinion seems to be, and correct me if I am wrong, is that we should do nothing until it is illegal. At that point it may be too late. There may be nothing to save,

Everyone is all worked up about "us" harassing divers (and I am willing to bet it is more than 5 that are taking in the park). Except for one comment that has been retracted, the only contact I have seen anyone discuss is conversation. What name calling? What intimidation? There is no evidence of that.

So I will ask the question again- If you have basically a whole island to hunt, why do you need to hunt in the park, even if it is legal and within your rights? And if you believe that education should start now, how do you suggest that be handled?

 

[Rainer]

Yet you have taken me to task several times, when that is exactly what I am promoting: I do not hunt, I believe we need to educate divers about not taking within the park, and I promote and am active in trying to change the legality of hunting in the park.

If you don't hunt, my comments clearly weren't directed at you. Many who *have* posted here, happily hunt at other sites. That's what some find hypocritical (and I'm not alone in that thought).

Part of that education is to try and convince others of the idea's worthyness, which is what we are trying to do here. Then maybe you will also help educate and promote the idea. Your opinion seems to be, and correct me if I am wrong, is that we should do nothing until it is illegal. At that point it may be too late. There may be nothing to save,

Yes, you're wrong. As I clearly said (in the section you just quoted, by the way...) education should begin now. If you see someone hunting in the park, talk to them about why you'd hope they wouldn't. Make your point rationally. Your solution in an earlier post was to lie to people. Not how I think you should proceed.

And let's get serious, "nothing to save"? There are at most a handful of people taking from the dive park while the rest of the coast is being picked clean and you're worried about the park and not those areas? Again, seek perspective.

Everyone is all worked up about "us" harassing divers (and I am willing to bet it is more than 5 that are taking in the park). Except for one comment that has been retracted, the only contact I have seen anyone discuss is conversation. What name calling? What intimidation? There is no evidence of that.

Seriously, read what was posted here (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/5526576-post10.html). THAT is the attitude I think we could all do without. We do not need to chase, shame, or scorn anyone acting legally. We can disagree with their actions, but handle it like adults.

So I will ask the question again- If you have basically a whole island to hunt, why do you need to hunt in the park, even if it is legal and within your rights? And if you believe that education should start now, how do you suggest that be handled?

Your first question can only be answered by those who hunt it the park. I don't.

Education should start by making your case rationally to divers about why hunting (either in the park or in general) runs counter to their selfish interests in seeing critters while they dive.

 

[Leejnd]

If you don't hunt, my comments clearly weren't directed at you. Many who *have* posted here, happily hunt at other sites. That's what some find hypocritical (and I'm not alone in that thought).

I am among the divers who hunt lobsters elsewhere, but will not hunt in the dive park...and have (I think pretty nicely) asked people not to hunt there.

I DO NOT THINK THAT MAKES ME A HYPOCRITE, and to be honest I'm offended and a little hurt by that suggestion.

I believe I've made it pretty clear in my few posts in this thread why I feel the way I do, and I strongly believe it is a valid, supportable, and non-hypocritical position. I'll state it again: I feel the dive park is special and different from the rest of the legally-huntable dive sites in SoCal, and should be treated as such. I believe the dive park should be maintained and respected as a showcase of SoCal diving, and hunting in it will spoil that. I have respectfully asked people not to hunt there. I wish it was legally protected, but at the present time it is not. So I am in support of divers taking whatever (non-violent) actions to protect it as much as we can...whether that's through education, talking to people, even nicely asking people to throw their catch back.

So am I a hypocrite? Really?

 

[Rainer]

So I am in support of divers taking whatever (non-violent) actions to protect it as much as we can

So am I a hypocrite? Really?

IMO, yes. There are two dive spots: A and B. You think A is special and not B. You believe a legal activity should only apply to B, and because of this your beliefs somehow give you the right to discourage others by *any* (non-violent) action.

You're beliefs about what is "special" shouldn't translate into insults and intimidation (both non-violent actions).

Since I believe both A and B are special, does that give me the right to call you names and threaten you if you hunt (legally) in either?

I love how some think this tiny area is so special (worth making no-take), but then have no problem going a few hundred yards away and taking to their bag limit. Sorry, but how could that be anything other than hypocrisy? Guess what, if you'd stop taking from those spots, they, too, could be special (again).

 

[Leejnd]

I also want to say the following: I also don't feel like this is a NIMBY thing. I don't live on Catalina, and I don't even get over there to dive very often. The reason I feel this way is more about wanting to have just ONE PLACE that can be our showcase...that is easy to dive, accessible to students, new divers and tourists...that highlights all of the best things that diving in this region has to offer.

I travel quite a bit, and have had the incredible good fortune to dive in some of the top diving destinations in the world. When I meet divers in other locations, I always talk about what diving is like at home. SoCal tends to have a reputation as not really worthy of visiting just for diving, unlike so many other dive destinations around the world. Cold water, no colorful coral reefs, bad vis, blah blah blah. I always make a point of touting our incredible kelp forests, our spectacular pelagic life (bat rays, leopard sharks, etc), our gorgeous nudibranchs, our vividly-colored Garibaldi, rock holes full of lobsters, and all the other wonderful things there are to see around here. I always tell people that if they want guaranteed awesome SoCal diving, go stay on Catalina and dive the park.

I also talk about diving quite a bit to non-divers. When people show an interest, I always tell them that they should consider doing a Discover-Scuba course at the dive park, as it's the easiest place to dive in SoCal, and has a rich diversity of life that is generally protected by the local divers, so you can be sure to get a good dose of what we have to offer around here.

THOSE are the reasons why I don't want to see people hunt there.

So I ask again...am I a hypocrite? Really??

 

[Leejnd]

IMO, yes.

Okay fine. You've made your feelings clear. I strongly disagree with you. I do not consider myself to be a hypocrite at all, and I'll be real honest and say that your saying that hurts. I've never met you, but I have always respected your posts -- your passion for diving, your knowledge about DIR and willingness to share and educate others without belittling them. But if that's how you feel, fine. I will post to this thread no longer.

And I will continue to promote SoCal diving, AND promote protecting our beautiful park.

 

[Rainer]

I also talk about diving quite a bit to non-divers. When people show an interest, I always tell them that they should consider doing a Discover-Scuba course at the dive park, as it's the easiest place to dive in SoCal, and has a rich diversity of life that is generally protected by the local divers, so you can be sure to get a good dose of what we have to offer around here.

THOSE are the reasons why I don't want to see people hunt there.

So I ask again...am I a hypocrite? Really??

And while they're doing their Discover Scuba class on your recommendation at the dive park (which has so much to offer), you're down a few sites plucking out lobsters left and right (reducing how much those sites have to offer)? That really doesn't strike you as being perhaps a little hypocritical?

Everything is somehow ok as long as we have ONE PLACE as our showcase? Sorry, I guess I'm just not into "showcases" *at the expense* of the environment at large.