Should SB be required reading in OW classes?

[uncfnp]

Interesting comments. I am fascinated by the focus on the "required reading" part. I did not mean to suggest that instructors should make it essential to passing the course but used the term more as an hyperbole to start the conversation. In truth, I'm not sure there really is such a thing as required reading since in my experience such requirements are rarely actually read (but that's another topic).


As to the timing for the introduction of extracurricular information to divers, I can appreciate the argument that OW is too early but not sure I can agree. The few posts that I have seen from new divers that found SB early on do not seem to support that theory.


And Richard, you are usually the one posting that individuals should be able to make their own choices, and mistakes. It's interesting to see you presenting the censorship, nanny state side.

Hell no

Thank you for proving SB is not perfect and that not all posts are worth reading.

---------- Post added February 20th, 2014 at 12:21 AM ----------

Lets be honest, if we had ow students read SB they are views they WILL come across and you'd spend the whole bloody course time discussing virtual diving rather than training actual diving..

So you believe that open discussions on diving in dive class are a bad thing. Hmmm...

 

[Tigerman]

...
So you believe that open discussions on diving in dive class are a bad thing. Hmmm...

No, I think discussing a topic you as an OW STUDENT (as pointed out earlier) is counterproductive, given the fact that the student have no prior knowledge or realistic means of knowing whats BS and whats not and especially given the ammount of time people want to spend in the classroom it would be taking up time that should be spent learning the basic concepts of theory and getting into the pool working on practical skills.
The basic OW course is not the time or place to expect the students to be able to discuss the kinda crap we discuss on SB and without any "filter" or knowledge its just too much "noise" to be productive as a part of a basic course.
As I said before though, once you're certified and going on to advance your experience, it can have its place.
Including SB in the OW course is kinda like including cubic equations when you're learning basic multiplication - an extension beyond the current scope..

 

[Diver0001]

So you believe that open discussions on diving in dive class are a bad thing. Hmmm...

In Tigerman's defense, I didn't read it like that at all. When you're teaching a diving course, the reality is that you only have so much time to transfer a significant amount of knowledge to your students. If you spend too much time on side-bars then it can get in the way of them learning what they need to learn.

I doubt very much that anyone who has been a long-time member on Scubaboard would shy away from open discussions about diving... LOL

R..

 

[Lorenzoid]

I'm making the point that some forum discussions could undermine student confidence in their course, and thus the degree to which they commit to it. Not claiming these as my positions. They are, however, views a newcomer can run across, creating fear, uncertainty and doubt.

It depends on the student. Some, who have the same sort of mindset as we do, would not let it undermine their confidence. But as I said above, I think people with our mindset are the minority of the worldwide pool of prospective OW students. By the way, I thought your list of 15 examples was spot on.

. . .
As to the timing for the introduction of extracurricular information to divers, I can appreciate the argument that OW is too early but not sure I can agree. The few posts that I have seen from new divers that found SB early on do not seem to support that theory.

I'd like to reiterate the possibility that the "few posts" are from a small minority of all people who found SB early on. I think that if most OW students took a look at SB, most of them would not post. Rather, I think most would be confused by it if not completely turned off by it. The few posts we see from people who found SB early on are from the few who share a similar mindset as you and others who are active SB posters.

I will again admit that I have seen no data on what kind of people "most" OW students are--that is, inquisitive types versus "spoon-feed me no more than I absolutely need to know" types. It's just a gut feeling I've gotten from newly certified divers I've run across.

. . .
I would never require them to read it though. I do tell them that *IF* they read it and they read something that conflicts with what I'm telling them in the course that they should bring the questions they have to class so we can discuss it. . . .

I can't say I've observed many OW classes or been acquainted with many instructors personally, but from what I have observed and heard, most OW instructors have little time to spare for "discussion" in their classes. What if all of your students had read SB because it was "required reading," and it prompted five or six students to come into class with interesting questions that could easily drag on into 20-minute discussions each? Again, it seems to me that you instructors who contribute regularly on SB probably teach on a quality level above the average instructor. I wish you had been my instructor.

---------- Post added February 20th, 2014 at 09:13 AM ----------

I hadn't carefully read your post immediately above. Yes, exactly!

 

[Bob DBF]

... prompted five or six students to come into class with interesting questions that could easily drag on into 20-minute discussions each?

Although it was well before Scubaboard and the ubiquitous internet, I enjoyed the long discussions about SCUBA during OW class. The "wasted" time in the old SCUBA classes was used for these discussions as training that was not included in the book. There were several free divers and myself, a diver for many years, so the Q & A discussions were pretty informative. Of course, at that time, most divers were not expected to attend another class and so there was no "we will cover that in your next class" mentality seen today. Everyone makes up their own mind which is better.



Bob
--------------------------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[drbill]

I wouldn't recommend it to a student going through early certs like OW And AOW. Don't get me wrong, I love it here and I learn quite a bit myself (even after 50+ years of diving). But I can weed out the kernel from the chaff (most of the time). I just think there is too much that is contradictory here for someone who doesn't have a baseline knowledge and experience to assess.

I was surprised to read Frank's (Wookie) statement that PADI instructors aren't allowed to have an account here. To me that is an indictment of PADI as an organization. Whatever happened to free association? PADI may disagree with some of the things posted here, but I don't see what gives them any right to restrict access for their instructors.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Although it was well before Scubaboard and the ubiquitous internet, I enjoyed the long discussions about SCUBA during OW class. The "wasted" time in the old SCUBA classes was used for these discussions as training that was not included in the book. There were several free divers and myself, a diver for many years, so the Q & A discussions were pretty informative. Of course, at that time, most divers were not expected to attend another class and so there was no "we will cover that in your next class" mentality seen today. Everyone makes up their own mind which is better.



Bob
--------------------------------

I remember the stories and examples by my instructor, they were informative and a lot of fun.
I think that's one thing missing in todays online class environment; is the time to bond with the instructor and other students, before, during, and after class. All this was very useful in the whole array of scuba training.

 

[fjpatrum]

No, I think discussing a topic you as an OW STUDENT (as pointed out earlier) is counterproductive, given the fact that the student have no prior knowledge or realistic means of knowing whats BS and whats not and especially given the ammount of time people want to spend in the classroom it would be taking up time that should be spent learning the basic concepts of theory and getting into the pool working on practical skills.
The basic OW course is not the time or place to expect the students to be able to discuss the kinda crap we discuss on SB and without any "filter" or knowledge its just too much "noise" to be productive as a part of a basic course.
As I said before though, once you're certified and going on to advance your experience, it can have its place.
Including SB in the OW course is kinda like including cubic equations when you're learning basic multiplication - an extension beyond the current scope..

Information and questions ALWAYS have their place. It's how they're handled that is the problem.

I see this is as the point where the instructor needs to be able to guide the discussion to information relevant to the particular section of the course they're working on at the moment. Good instructors can roll with it and table the discussions if it becomes too far off topic. I really think this is the reason a lot of instructors don't want their students knowing about these kinds of resources; they simply don't know how to appropriately deal with the conversations without it impacting their lecture times.

Sure, you can let outside questions derail your course, but you have to deal with that no matter what. I asked a lot of questions during my course (even before I found scubaboard). Because I had a higher level physics understanding I asked for more detail (which my instructor couldn't provide) on the gas theory and where to find it and "what if" scenarios. When I had gear configuration questions, I asked. When my questions went too far afield, my instructor basically said, "let's talk about it after class so we don't get too far behind our curriculum schedule." Simple solution, handled well.

The worst thing that happens is you go off topic a bit and then sidebar the discussion for a break or after class if it's too distracting. Giving students a good resource for information is always a good thing, in my opinion.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I can't say I've observed many OW classes or been acquainted with many instructors personally, but from what I have observed and heard, most OW instructors have little time to spare for "discussion" in their classes. What if all of your students had read SB because it was "required reading," and it prompted five or six students to come into class with interesting questions that could easily drag on into 20-minute discussions each?

Now, granted I don't teach through a shop and my classes tend to be a bit more informal and flexible than those who do, but I encourage lots of questions from my students ... and we often spend a considerable amount of class time looking at perspectives that are "alternative" to the agency curriculum. But my students also tend to be a self-selecting group who seek out private instruction because they want more than what's being offered through a standard dive shop experience. So it works both ways.

That said, a great deal of our discussion takes place outside of the class environment ... often through email. While I don't require students to look at ScubaBoard ... or any other source outside of the provided class materials ... I do encourage it. I think reading about, discussing, and thinking about perspectives other than what's presented in the class materials helps students make better decisions. And the ability to make good decisions is at least as important to diver safety as having good training and developing good skills.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added February 20th, 2014 at 08:11 AM ----------

Information and questions ALWAYS have their place. It's how they're handled that is the problem.

I see this is as the point where the instructor needs to be able to guide the discussion to information relevant to the particular section of the course they're working on at the moment. Good instructors can roll with it and table the discussions if it becomes too far off topic. I really think this is the reason a lot of instructors don't want their students knowing about these kinds of resources; they simply don't know how to appropriately deal with the conversations without it impacting their lecture times.

Sure, you can let outside questions derail your course, but you have to deal with that no matter what. I asked a lot of questions during my course (even before I found scubaboard). Because I had a higher level physics understanding I asked for more detail (which my instructor couldn't provide) on the gas theory and where to find it and "what if" scenarios. When I had gear configuration questions, I asked. When my questions went too far afield, my instructor basically said, "let's talk about it after class so we don't get too far behind our curriculum schedule." Simple solution, handled well.

The worst thing that happens is you go off topic a bit and then sidebar the discussion for a break or after class if it's too distracting. Giving students a good resource for information is always a good thing, in my opinion.

This is where an experienced instructor can often provide value that an inexperienced instructor can't ... both in terms of knowing how to teach and in having a contextual grasp of the subject matter. I start every class by stating that my teaching style is to have more of a discussion than a lecture, and encourage my student to participate by asking questions. I particularly like questions that begin with the word "Why" ... as it gives us an entry into exploring the context of a given topic.

That said, it's easy to let those discussions wander far afield of the flow of the curriculum, and you have to know when to pull it back into the mainstream of the topic and encourage the student to either "hold that thought till we get to that part of the class", or "let's talk about that more after class". Those discussions are valuable, and not just to the student. It's often the case that a question from a student spawns a train of thought that leads to improvements in how I present that material the next time.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hawkwood]

...

I was surprised to read Frank's (Wookie) statement that PADI instructors aren't allowed to have an account here. To me that is an indictment of PADI as an organization. Whatever happened to free association? PADI may disagree with some of the things posted here, but I don't see what gives them any right to restrict access for their instructors.

Really? I must have missed that memo, as have all the other PADI Pro's on SB.

Heck, we even have our own PADI Members Forum now.