Should Nitrox Certification require dives....

[badgers]

Should Nitrox Certification require dives?
NO

 

[-hh]

The way to change the industry isn't to put a band aid here and there...

The ground truth is that Nitrox classes require checkout dives because it is a Quality Assurance "band aid" to try to catch & correct those divers who have nevertheless gotten into the system without fully adequate diving skills.


Which means that the original question here can be deconstructed as follows:

a) Would a follow-on Nitrox course receive benefit from requiring checkout dives if OW's realized training skills were fully adequate?

(Nope)

b) Would a follow-on Nitrox course receive benefit from requiring checkout dives since the reality is that OW's realized training skills aren't fully adequate?

(and therein lies the band aid...er "rub").

This is seriously the only industry that I can think of where the people that are paying for something are insisting on less, not more..

Actually, all industries deal with this issue daily of the consumer always wanting more content for less money...its called "best value".

Whenever the consumer believes that the differences between two products aren't worth paying extra for, the more expensive ("superior") product gets shunned and the "inferior" product gets sold instead. All because it came out ahead in the consumer's best-value comparison.



-hh

 

[liberato]

I'm not aware of more than one EAN certification through PADI and because it requires 2 dives, there is some water time, but I don't think watered down is an appropriate statement.

Ha, ha, ha! But the watered down version (PADI Discover Enriched Air Nitrox) is the one without the water! My question is what does "indirect supervision" below mean? Does that mean I call up my instructor to let him know I am going out with my buddies this weekend on EAN32. Or do I need to dive with him (but wouldn't that then be direct supervision)?

Successful completion of DISCOVER Enriched Air NITROX will allow you to dive with enriched air blends with up to 32 percent oxygen. You'll be able make enriched air dives within the no-stop limits of the air Recreation Dive Planner (RDP) or an air-based dive computer, to a maximum depth of 30 metres/100 feet (depending on current certification level and experience), under the indirect supervision of a PADI professional (Divemaster, Assistant Instructor or Instructor) who is enriched air certified.​

 

[MHK]

Actually, all industries deal with this issue daily of the consumer always wanting more content for less money...its called "best value".

Whenever the consumer believes that the differences between two products aren't worth paying extra for, the more expensive ("superior") product gets shunned and the "inferior" product gets sold instead. All because it came out ahead in the consumer's best-value comparison.
-hh

I believe you missed my point. My position wasn't a consumer wanting more content for less money, as you suggest. I agree, most consumers want that. My position, in the instant case, is consumers in the dive industry a.k.a. students wanting less content for the same money. That stands in startk contrast to anything I can think of. All too many divers look at the c-card as the end game, so in essence, they presume that if they have a fancy c-card it's indicative of the knowledge that the card purports to represent. Whereas I'd prefer divers worry less about the c-card and more about the underlying knowledge that the c-card is supposed to represent. The dive industry is too much like the Boy Scouts merit badge mentality..

Regards,

 

[MHK]

Ha, ha, ha! But the watered down version (PADI Discover Enriched Air Nitrox) is the one without the water! My question is what does "indirect supervision" below mean? Does that mean I call up my instructor to let him know I am going out with my buddies this weekend on EAN32. Or do I need to dive with him (but wouldn't that then be direct supervision)?

Successful completion of DISCOVER Enriched Air NITROX will allow you to dive with enriched air blends with up to 32 percent oxygen. You'll be able make enriched air dives within the no-stop limits of the air Recreation Dive Planner (RDP) or an air-based dive computer, to a maximum depth of 30 metres/100 feet (depending on current certification level and experience), under the indirect supervision of a PADI professional (Divemaster, Assistant Instructor or Instructor) who is enriched air certified.​

You know the more I consider this scheme, the more ridiculous it seems to me. I hadn't spent sufficient time studying the details of this class, since to me this just seems like a money making opportunity for the agency, but now that you brought that paragraph to my attention, I'm just shocked at what levels certain agencies will sink too.

Essentially this class looks like you do a few math problems over the internet, you pay PADI $30 and dive 32% on air tables and away you go.. I agree with you, can anyone explain what indirect supervision means??? Is this a PADI term as defined in their S & P's?? So I guess theoretically, you could have a newly minted OW diver, just completed his OW training diving Nitrox 32% with the indirect supervision, whatever that means, of a DM.. And some are arguing the lack of need to do dives in the class to verify bouyancy control?? This class really doesn't seem like a well thought out idea to me by PADI..

Regards

 

[MHK]

Successful completion of DISCOVER Enriched Air NITROX will allow you to dive with enriched air blends with up to 32 percent oxygen. You'll be able make enriched air dives within the no-stop limits of the air Recreation Dive Planner (RDP) or an air-based dive computer, to a maximum depth of 30 metres/100 feet (depending on current certification level and experience), under the indirect supervision of a PADI professional (Divemaster, Assistant Instructor or Instructor) who is enriched air certified.​

Not to quibble over semantics, but if we are going to ask for definitions from PADI, I'm wondering if we can get a definition as to the term "no-stop limits"? It's seems that this advertisement is very carefully worded, more then likely reviewed by legal counsel, and as I understand diving at a minimum you want to spend 3 minutes at 15' under the PADI methodology, so I'm confused by the term "no-stop"..

Regards

 

[liberato]

It seems tailor-made for resorts and liveaboards. Pretty much everyone knows the resorts were certifying unqualified students so they could be put on the Nitrox package (a great profit center). So now, they can just partially certify them without any fraud being involved and get them on Nitrox. Resorts and liveaboards usually only have EAN32 available anyway so perfect.

As far as "no stop" goes I think the safety stop is not counted as a stop because technically you could skip it and still be within NDL.

 

[sweatfrog]

Ha, ha, ha! But the watered down version (PADI Discover Enriched Air Nitrox) is the one without the water! My question is what does "indirect supervision" below mean? Does that mean I call up my instructor to let him know I am going out with my buddies this weekend on EAN32. Or do I need to dive with him (but wouldn't that then be direct supervision)?

Successful completion of DISCOVER Enriched Air NITROX will allow you to dive with enriched air blends with up to 32 percent oxygen. You'll be able make enriched air dives within the no-stop limits of the air Recreation Dive Planner (RDP) or an air-based dive computer, to a maximum depth of 30 metres/100 feet (depending on current certification level and experience), under the indirect supervision of a PADI professional (Divemaster, Assistant Instructor or Instructor) who is enriched air certified.​

You've heard of Discover scuba, Discover Cavern, now Discover Nitrox. You can get the training online for Discover Nitrox, but there's no cards for these courses. Not something I have figured out how to sell in good faith. This is whole new marketing can of worms.

To answer your question about indirect supervision, an Instructor does have to be on site and monitor all activities. Since he doesn't have to get his hair wet, its not one of my choices. The student pays good money to take the course and if I were in his place, I'd want the Instructor monitoring the dive to give me feedback. To be fair, all of the agencies do this to some extent with DM''s and AI's.

 

[Don Burke]

To answer your question about indirect supervision, an Instructor does have to be on site and monitor all activities. Since he doesn't have to get his hair wet, its not one of my choices. The student pays good money to take the course and if I were in his place, I'd want the Instructor monitoring the dive to give me feedback. To be fair, all of the agencies do this to some extent with DM''s and AI's.

Actually, it appears the "indirect supervision" refers to after certification.

This would seem to be worthwhile for someone who dives for a couple of days a year and never without a divemaster at his side.

It is not something I would have chosen, but then, I had never heard of a "resort course" until after I certified.

 

[scubatwinned]

Knowledge acquisition (cognitive) is a very tenuous thing until people put it to use. This is especially evident among INfrequent divers. That diver taking a December class in Minnesota seldom remembers all she or he needs when getting to the Carribean in June, and certainly has not learned the nuance and judgment necessary for nitrox.

Would an infrequent diver see a need to get nitrox certed?