Should Nitrox Certification require dives....

[MHK]

What is the remedial training in these cases? I'm sure since it happens to you that often, you run the gammit from: "come and do a pool dive with me" -to- "give me your C-Card you slug and take the full OW again"... Just wondering what you're options are and what you've done in the past. What sorts of reactions have you gotten...

I video tape them underwater, I then watch the tape with them, rewind it time and time again, and tell them how to correct the problem(s) and then make them go out in 20' of water to practice it. I have a rule when I reteach my students. If they go out and practice [ and I'll be able to tell in a few seconds underwater] then I don't charge them for the re-take of the class. If, however, I come back and they haven't bothered to practice then they've wasted my time so I have no problem charging them again.

The origingal question wasn't "Is continuing education good for divers?", it was "Should NITROX certification require actual dives?". I still think my two dives were a waste of time and money as far as NITROX goes, although they were very valuable as far as honing my diving skills goes. I think we agree that continuing education is a VERY GOOD thing for a diver, I just don't think the NITROX class is the setting.

You can't divorce the two concepts when some are advancing the position that the dives are a waste because they have supposedly demonstrated skill during the OW class. To the extent that position is a defense for why dives shouldn't be required during the Nitrox portion I needed to point out why that idea is flawed.

Hope that clarifies the point.

Regards

 

[trevinkorea]

No one is keeping you from diving to develop skills.

My point is that no nitrox related value is added to the nitrox course by diving.There is nothing keeping you from diving. I do not see why I should be required to dive with an LDC because you need something to amuse you.Nitrox is sometimes taught along with AOW. Teaching it with OW would seem to serve to dilute OW. By that reasoning, trimix should be taught in OW. I do not buy it.

The oxygen clock calculations would add too much complexity to OW. We need more basic skills taught in OW, not less.There is nothing keeping you from cracking some other books. It was a nitrox course, not post-graduate physiology.

Don Burke

It's taken a bit to find this thread again and I want to reply to your comments.

First of all, you have absolutely no idea who I am or what I do in regards to keeping up my skills and increasing my knowledge. Before you reply, it would be a good idea to think a little first.

You’re right though; nothing should stop me from researching to find new information to add to my arsenal. This is in fact what I do. As a professional researcher/lecturer, I think I'm probably adequately qualified to do this.

As for the dives being something to "amuse" me. You are way off the mark. Dives with any course are important. As an instructor, one would be neglecting their duty to ensure that the diver is safe, should they issue a card without actually observing the student in the water.

I agree, a nitrox dive really does not require the practice of any new skills. But, it does provide the instructor a chance to assess the divers ability prior to signing the certification.

For experienced divers, I do think the dive should be at the instructor's discretion and not absolutely required but for the less experienced, it should be mandatory.

Teaching it with OW would seem to serve to dilute OW. By that reasoning, trimix should be taught in OW. I do not buy it.

I'm sorry. I don't see your logic. There is a huge gap between Nitrox and Trimix. If as some mentioned, Nitrox is a good candidate for an online course and it is not really very difficult, how can this possibly compare to trimix. If you mess up with Nitrox you are probably going to be OK as long as you didn't exceed the limits too much. With Trimix, you are in a world of hurt. Apples and oranges!

There is nothing keeping you from cracking some other books. It was a nitrox course, not post-graduate physiology

Once again, you're right! Nothing has stopped me from learning more and Nitrox isn't postgraduate physiology. However, it is extremely watered down. If it wasn't, this thread would not have been posted in the first place and people would be able to find value in a course taught by an instructor with the dives included.

 

[trevinkorea]

I video tape them underwater, I then watch the tape with them, rewind it time and time again, and tell them how to correct the problem(s) and then make them go out in 20' of water to practice it. I have a rule when I reteach my students. If they go out and practice [ and I'll be able to tell in a few seconds underwater] then I don't charge them for the re-take of the class. If, however, I come back and they haven't bothered to practice then they've wasted my time so I have no problem charging them again.



You can't divorce the two concepts when some are advancing the position that the dives are a waste because they have supposedly demonstrated skill during the OW class. To the extent that position is a defense for why dives shouldn't be required during the Nitrox portion I needed to point out why that idea is flawed.

Hope that clarifies the point.

Regards

Great!

It is people like you that actually help to keep this sport safe.

EDIT - Video taping is great! I do think is the dive tank and it is a real eye opener.

Keep up the great work.

You sound like an excellent instructor!

 

[John Stuart]

I personally can see both sides of this argument but lean toward supporting the dive requirements.

One option we promote is combining the nitrox class with a deep or wreck specialty class. This reduces the price to the diver and makes the nitrox dives much more meaningful.

 

[jonnythan]

I personally can see both sides of this argument but lean toward supporting the dive requirements.

One option we promote is combining the nitrox class with a deep or wreck specialty class. This reduces the price to the diver and makes the nitrox dives much more meaningful.

In other worse, make the dives skill dives and not nitrox dives, thereby giving them meaning

 

[Charlie99]

Charter boats don't let you dive with just a Nitrox card. They require OW cards. For a reason.

[slght digression]Charter boats will indeed let you dive with just a nitrox card, because an OW cert is a prerequisite for nitrox with all of the agencies. In the same way, Florida Keys dive ops that wanted an AOW card for a Spiegel Grove of Duane/Bibb dive were satisfied with my Rescue card since AOW or equivalent is a prerequisite for that[/digression]

 

[liberato]

PADI only requires the 2 dives for EAN certification over 32%. The watered down version of their certification says you can dive on 32% on air tables. I guess it is like a driver learner's permit.

 

[trevinkorea]

PADI only requires the 2 dives for EAN certification over 32%. The watered down version of their certification says you can dive on 32% on air tables. I guess it is like a driver learner's permit.

The watered down version hardly sound worth the effort. But, I guess some may find value in this.

I'm curious, is this actually offered by anyone outside of resorts.

One option we promote is combining the nitrox class with a deep or wreck specialty class. This reduces the price to the diver and makes the nitrox dives much more meaningful.

I agree. Nitrox is a great candidate for combined training.

But, I think it would be most beneficial if it were combined with an introduction to using doubles or pony bottle techniques. These are not terribly difficult skills but it would add value for someone who had never used the equipment and wanted to progress on to more technical diving in the future.

Basic nitrox is the first step and would provide a safe environment to try some different equipment. A possible sale for the shop and a new expereince for the student.

I do not suggest this as a venue for technical training. Technical training is a completly different game. I'm just suggesting that it would be a good place to introduce the skills provided the diver is ready and desires to learn the new skills.

Of course one could learn these skills on thier own but, why not learn them during a dive if it is manditory and that according to this thread doesn't really have any true training objective.

 

[sweatfrog]

I used to live in Colorado and wanted to become a good snow skier. I took lessons and then got into freestyle. After a while, the classes became skiing with friends, some people on this thread might see that as paying for nothing. However, with my increased perspective on skiing, I picked up some good techniques. By this time, the people in the class were learning from each other, as well as the different Instructors we had.

You just don't know what you don't know. When I had 20 dives I thought I was progressing. When I had 100 I thought I was getting good. When I got over 1000 I knew you continually need to dive to have any chance of getting better. I learn something from people everyday and every time I go diving. Otherwise, I might as well give it all up.

 

[sweatfrog]

PADI only requires the 2 dives for EAN certification over 32%. The watered down version of their certification says you can dive on 32% on air tables. I guess it is like a driver learner's permit.

I'm not aware of more than one EAN certification through PADI and because it requires 2 dives, there is some water time, but I don't think watered down is an appropriate statement.