Should Nitrox Certification require dives....

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MB

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DI_Guy:
I was wondering why would you need to have the dives... Most divers are quite experienced by the time we go for the Nitrox courses. So again, are the dives really needed ? Comments ???
When folks are thinking about taking a nitrox class, the topic often turns to the question of whether training dives for nitrox are necessary. There’s always someone to advocate for doing it quicker, cheaper, and with fewer requirements. And some instructors advocate turning out more students, and spending less time teaching. (Maybe its because they don’t have much to teach?) I’m one of those old mossbacks who think its reasonable to include dives in a nitrox class. The nitrox class isn’t just about formulas and math calculations and you don’t need to dive if you just want to learn nitrox theory - heck, my calculator doesn't actually work under water, so you don’t need dives for that. And my inflator button works the same whether 21% or 40% EAN comes out of my cylinder. But diving requires judgment calls, and nitrox diving requires additional judgments. We all know that there are cyber divers who can do the math and physics and pass multiple choice tests, but who do not make good decisions around (or under) water. I teach a fair amount of nitrox, always require two dives, and I have yet to end a class where the required dives did not result in some good learning.

Example: You've prepared a mix for an 85' dive. The dive boat gets to the site and there are two fishing boats tied in. Captain of the dive op scratches that site, and moves to a deeper wreck with a bottom of 135', but with the deck at 105’, the wheelhouse at 95' and some light structure starting at 60’. Experienced nitrox divers see the issues and opportunities right away for this dive, but would the person who just completed her on-line or classroom-only recognition class be fully prepared to adjust the dive plan? What a great opportunity for an instructor to seize this teachable moment and guide some decision-making judgment calls. How many ways could this dive plan be altered on the fly before jumping in the water? What risks would the new nitrox users face? Now throw in issues involving currents and a host of other un-planned contingencies... Your computer goes south – pull out the tables and dive anyway. Buy you’re using non-standard mixes (say, a 34% and a 40% EAN). Hmmm… time to use what you learned about equivalent air depth. These are all unplanned contingencies that a good instructor can introduce, and guide a new nitrox user through. (And yes, there are a lot of mix options other than 32%!)

I frequently use the required dives to help students learn other skills as well. This includes fine tuning buoyancy, making adjustments to weight belts (and thus lowering the diver’s workload), and helping divers improve their air consumption. Longer bottom times are one benefit of nitrox, but only if a diver learns a breathing pattern that lowers his or her air consumption. We've also managed to sneak in a few new skills as well (deploying a blob, retrieving an anchor, mastering a different kick style, etc) even tho they have nothing to do with nitrox.

We sometimes forget that divers learn as they go - people aren't born with advanced dive skills. People will learn good and bad habits as they go. Instructors who are worth their spit should be trying to reduce the probability that people will learn bad habits. They should be helping people master new skills and knowledge related to nitrox, not just gain a general awareness of it. What better opportunity exists for teaching knowledge, good skills, habits, and judgments than by including training dives in the course? So ask your potential instructor what you’ll learn on nitrox training dives. If your instructor says its just a dive, find an instructor who actually has something to teach! But don’t skip the dives.
 
I hear you and I'm sure you are a great instructor...

But could those alternative planning scenarios not be introduced in the classroom as well. And what if there were no complications at all on the dives to work with...I woudl definitely let them analyze a few cyllinders if the standards allowed an absence of actual dives..

The other skills are nice of you and no doubt valuable to the students, but not in the requirements for nitrox certification.

I guess I basically fall on the side of classroom would be enough in terms of Nitrox knowledge, but it's always nice to dive...
 
jagfish:
...could those alternative planning scenarios not be introduced in the classroom as well. And what if there were no complications at all on the dives to work with...The other skills are nice of you and no doubt valuable to the students, but not in the requirements for nitrox certification.
Absolutely - you can introduce those scenarios in the classroom. And the outcome is that students might have more awareness and "classroom knowledge", but not a lick of new skill. We see it all the time with folks who ace the test, but never learned to apply the knoledge. The dives are what cement the learning by taking the classroom knowledge and giving it real life application. Transfer from the classroom to application is not automatic, and is a much higher order level of knowledge and skill.

What? No complications on the dives? What a missed opportunity if we don't "create" complications so that students have to problem solve! We've enjoyed many a beautiful dive when mid-way thru the surface interval I posed one of those ominous "what if" questions that required students to apply all that classroom knowledge to the here-and-now.

Re: the other skills... its more than just being nice, and not at all a function of "requirements." Its an absolute opportunity to shape divers' skill and knowledge. We can always teach less, but if we really want to have an impact on divers' skills, knowledge and judgement, why would we?
 
You make good points...

But for me, it comes down to the difference between motor skills and cognitive skills. I see Nitrox a predominantly cognitive. The exception to this would be the use of the analyser and if you want to argue the possible case that there is no bottom and the diver must stay above some MOD. Being cognitive, do I think it could be learned successfully in the classooom, absolutely. Any scenarios that could be presented on a dive could also be presented in the classroom...I feel.

Most of other diving is different. Could someone learn DIR-F or Peak Bouyancy in the classroom only, I think not.

So for me, there is the difference. Could other skills be added into the Nitrox dives...absolutely, just as those skills could be added into any other dive. I think that is a separate issue.

But once again, I think you are showing what a skilled and conscientious instructor you are in your arguements.
 
So far I have to agree with both arguments.

A purely classroom taught course is fine for nitrox. It is a theory class. And, on the other hand, giving a student practical experience with nitrox is a great opportunity for value added instruction. It is also a good way to spot those who are still a little confused about what nitrox is actually used for and those who get the idea that it is a strange gas and may act irrationally when using it. It is also a good opportunity to practice analyzing the gas a little more.

As a person who completed the nitrox course only six months ago with a first rate instructor, i'd have to say it is best to offer the dives. Unfortunately both the instructor were pressed for time during the course but it was really helpful to do the dives with him and he did present me with different scenarios by providing various mixes and having me plan the dive in terms of gas, bottom times, end even navigation, among other things that he threw at me throughout the dives. The value added was great! I learned more on the nitrox dives about gas management than on the deep diving course.

Bottom line, more training and information is better. Why do only what is required. Giving value added service is only going to make better divers and better customers. This all translates into more money for the instructor, long term, and fewer injuries for the diver.

Everybody wins! So, why would anyone want to offer or take a purely theory class when they can jump in and enjoy a dive! And, what's the point of taking a class on nitrox if you aren't going to get hands on in-water experience with it. I think I would opt for a good book because without some added value there is nothing about basic nitrox theory that really necessitates an instructor.

[B]NOTE - I am not in any way slamming instructors here or suggesting that taking a good course is not valuable. I am just posting my thoughts on the subject. [/B]
 
that any dive under a good instructor's watchful eye will result in the student learning something of value. No argument there. But nitrox cert can be done just fine without the dives. If a student has poor buoyancy skills, two dives will likely help but probably won't solve the problem. Other that watching the MOD for the dive, which is buoyancy dependendsent to a large extent, there isn't much else unique to diving with nitrox. Gas analysis and other dive planning can be done in the classroom. Is there anything wrong with two dives? Absolutely not...unless time, money or location are factors. Say you're planning a trip to Grand Cayman in May and it's now March and you're in Minnesota. How would you get the dives in for a nitrox cert prior to going to GC? What if you live in Maryland, as I do and you wanted to get nitrox for that July trip to GC? You could get the dives here in the quarry and freeze your buns, which many would rather avoid. And if you're on a budget those two dives cost money. So, IMHO, the two dives may be a nice option when circumstances make sense, but they shouldn't be mandatory.
 
jagfish:
... it comes down to the difference between motor skills and cognitive skills. I see Nitrox a predominantly cognitive... Being cognitive, do I think it could be learned successfully in the classooom, absolutely. Any scenarios that could be presented on a dive could also be presented in the classroom...

Your observation on learning is absolutely on target - it IS the difference between motor skills and cognitive skills. But in your teaching observation I think you overestimate the role of classroom instruction in learning to do more complex dives. Knowledge acquisition (cognitive) is a very tenuous thing until people put it to use. This is especially evident among INfrequent divers. That diver taking a December class in Minnesota seldom remembers all she or he needs when getting to the Carribean in June, and certainly has not learned the nuance and judgment necessary for nitrox.

We frequently miss the motor foundations of cognitive learning. Handling an O2 analyzer is clearly a motor skill, but its easy to overlook the role that motor rehearsal plays in learning conceptual skills. Doing becomes the glue that helps learners remember cognitive lessons. (Plus we get to teach all that other cool stuff we talked about before.) Now don't get me wrong about classroom learning. I'm a huge fan of teaching way beyond the usual knowledge base - but I recognize that it has only entertainment value unless I get students to DO something with that new, cognitive learning.

Now Jag, you've gotta stop saying nice things about me as a teacher. If my wife sees that, she's gonna think I put you up to that and then she'll never take me seriously again!
 
MB:
Now Jag, you've gotta stop saying nice things about me as a teacher. If my wife sees that, she's gonna think I put you up to that and then she'll never take me seriously again!

LOL!
 
moxie:
Is there anything wrong with two dives? Absolutely not...unless time, money or location are factors. Say you're planning a trip to Grand Cayman in May and it's now March and you're in Minnesota. How would you get the dives in for a nitrox cert prior to going to GC? ...the two dives may be a nice option when circumstances make sense, but they shouldn't be mandatory.
Before this thread was cut from the previous one, the question was how nitrox and an advanced class might fit together. The discussion about nitrox dives in that context was quite relevant... But our discussion has been moderated/morphed now onto a separate theme about whether all nitrox classes should have dives. ho hum...

Hey I'm not lobbying for agencies to do anything. Your Minnesota & Maryland examples are good reasons why the no-dive endorsements now exist.

There are always reasons why people want less, and I guarantee there are instructors who are willing to DO less. I'm approaching this simply from a learning perspective. If dives are part of the course, AND if there are actual instructional objectives attached to the dives, you'll get better learning. But I'm not so naive as to think that many nitrox training dives aren't just fun dives rather than fun training dives. Heck, most AOW courses (yup, that's back to where we started - I hope we don't get split off again) are simply a collection of guided dives rather than serious instruction. But that's another topic for a different day...
 
Seems to me that not a single one of the issues you guys have mentioned actually occurs underwater......
 

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