Should Nitrox Certification require dives....

[Don Burke]

Why all the opposition to a nitrox course requiring dives? If we like diving as much as we all like talking about diving, why wouldn't we take any opportunity we had to get in the water and go diving?

It raises issues of scheduling and weather.

Around here, we can go a month without a diveable weekend. That could make it pretty tough to get a cert in time for a vacation trip.

Add in busy student and instructor schedules and it could take quite a while ... and to no gain in nitrox training.

 

[Otter]

[FACTS]

First, completion of "Discover Enriched Air NITROX" does not result in a certification.

"DISCOVER Enriched Air NITROX is the first part of a two part certification, allowing you to discover the benefits of enriched air diving without going through the complete PADI Enriched Air Diver course. Once you decide that enriched air diving is for you, you can get your PADI Enriched Air Diver certification by simply completing the second part of the course through your PADI Dive Center or Resort." Its basically a Nitrox "resort dive".

Second, Buoyancy Control is a prerequisite for the Nitrox Class. As was pointed out above, ALL classes (including Nitrox) have a prerequisite pre-assessment of skills to make sure that the student's skills are consistent with the level of training required for the class.

Third, while it is true that GUE is the only agency to require recertification, "A diver can be re-qualified six months before or six months after the expiration of their certification period by having his/her individual dive experience reviewed by either a qualified GUE instructor or by GUE Headquarters. To maintain GUE certification, GUE divers must a) complete and log at least twenty-five (25) dives at the level of their certification within a three-year period and, b) must provide evidence of such by producing their logbook or by mailing in or faxing copies of their logbook pages to a relevant GUE representative (see above). Upon review, divers can be issued a new certification card for a nominal fee." You draw your own conclusions on the efficacy of faxing in logbook pages and paying a nominal fee as a means for insuring diver competency.

[/FACTS][Opinion]
As the PADI EAN class is currently structured, the dives provide little direct opportunity to insure the student has attained sufficient understanding of the knowledge and skills required for certification. I agree that an opportunity to enhance the learning and increase the value of the class would be to add the handling of an OxTox diver (presuming that your buddy is also on Nitrox)[/OPINION]

 

[-hh]

First, sorry for my long delay in responding...been on the road on business.

I believe you missed my point. My position wasn't a consumer wanting more content for less money, as you suggest. I agree, most consumers want that. My position, in the instant case, is consumers in the dive industry a.k.a. students wanting less content for the same money. That stands in startk contrast to anything I can think of.

Its not that the customer wants less content (for same price): what's happening is that they see 'value added' in not having to do the checkout dives because they don't believe they add adequate value, in combination with it having drawbacks.

In essence, they're saying that they're willing to pay more for a product that is more convenient to them, even if it is slightly (but not significantly) "less" by some other measure. Here, the scheduling of the required check-out dives can be personally inconvenient, and/or require a coldwater dive (discomfort).

FWIW, if my wife was taking a Nitrox class and she was given the option of paying an extra $50 to skip having to do two checkout dives in our local 40F quarry, I know that she would pay it in a heartbeat.

Even though you may perceive it as offering less content for the same price, this is still the consumer deciding for himself what he believes is "Best Value". The difference is because you're not assigning the same value weightings on the various product attributes as the customer is.

All too many divers look at the c-card as the end game...

And this is perpetuated by *all* the Agencies. IIRC, even the old "500/1000/5000 logged dives" C-Cards weren't completely free.

I'd prefer divers worry less about the c-card and more about the underlying knowledge that the c-card is supposed to represent.

Sure. And you can influence this yourself within your own Agency by having them formally advocate a policy of common sense.

The easiest example that comes to mind are highly experienced and qualified divers who get hassled by stupid diveshop people, such as over the lack of a pragmatically meaningless (but trusted!) Agency-issued "credential", instead of actually accessing the customer standing in front of them. This is not profound news...this issue has been around on for years and years....take a look at this detailed narrative of an Instructor's experience from 1997 that really says it all.

The dive industry is too much like the Boy Scouts merit badge mentality..

That's because the Agency's business model is that they exist to sell C-Cards.

Once a regularly practicing diver gets a decent amount of experience under his belt (IMO, 5+ years), they correctly recognize that while training has real value, the C-Card is little more than an additional "Agency Tax".


-hh

 

[-hh]

200 was just a # I threw out to see what others thought... - higher or lower?? It seems you think lower while others think that 200 dives proves nothing...

IIRC, 200 dives would be double the current standard required to become a full blown Instructor.

As such, yeah, it sounds about right


...

Okay, seriously now: there is IMO no particular problem with Nitrox that requires a certain number of dives...it comes down to the ability to demonstrate relevant skills, most of which boil down to diving discipline. Ideally, these are assessed during the diver's original training, so if these standards are applied objectively, there's not a problem. However, there's a basic conflict of interest because the training provider is too strongly motivated to always graduate his students regardless of their attitudes and abilities. Realistically, what this means is that the current system needs checks and balances. Insofar as what constitutes an adequate process, that ultimately boils down to what level of quality assurance we're willing to pay for, and at less than $20 a head for a PIC card, the answer is "As little as we can get away with".

-hh

 

[VTernovski]

I totally disagree with you Mike.

My Nitrox card says that I have been instructed and trained on the planning and use of Nitrox.

My Open Water Diver card says that I have been instructed and trained on diving.

I don't want to pay extra to go diving with an instructor of questionable skill or merit for no reason whatsoever.

my nitrox card says NITROX COMPUTER DIVER... meaning I am not allowed to go diving using NITROX without using a DIVE COMPUTER in NITROX mode... go figure...