Should Nitrox Certification require dives....

[Don Burke]

No

While there is value in having the student plan some dives using EAN and analyze some cylinders with EAN in them, nothing is learned on the dives themselves.

You could sell me the concept of having the student plan ten dives to occur over four days and analyze ten cylinders. There are some tidbits I have learned since getting that cert that I think should have been covered in the course and they would have come to light this way.

I went through PADI nitrox and nothing was learned about EAN on the dives.

 

[jakubson]

Before this thread was cut from the previous one, the question was how nitrox and an advanced class might fit together. The discussion about nitrox dives in that context was quite relevant... But our discussion has been moderated/morphed now onto a separate theme about whether all nitrox classes should have dives. ho hum...

Hey I'm not lobbying for agencies to do anything. Your Minnesota & Maryland examples are good reasons why the no-dive endorsements now exist.

There are always reasons why people want less, and I guarantee there are instructors who are willing to DO less. I'm approaching this simply from a learning perspective. If dives are part of the course, AND if there are actual instructional objectives attached to the dives, you'll get better learning. But I'm not so naive as to think that many nitrox training dives aren't just fun dives rather than fun training dives. Heck, most AOW courses (yup, that's back to where we started - I hope we don't get split off again) are simply a collection of guided dives rather than serious instruction. But that's another topic for a different day...

This discussion seems to imply that only new divers are the only ones taking Nitrox. Some of us greyhairs (or no hairs) recently took Nitrox, and 2 extra dives after 300 plus would not be meaningful. We have already modified dive plans based on higher tides, alternate dive sites, ... in our diving career. I am very happy that a "no dives" Nitrox course was available in my area.

 

[jonnythan]

This discussion seems to imply that only new divers are the only ones taking Nitrox. Some of us greyhairs (or no hairs) recently took Nitrox, and 2 extra dives after 300 plus would not be meaningful. We have already modified dive plans based on higher tides, alternate dive sites, ... in our diving career. I am very happy that a "no dives" Nitrox course was available in my area.

Good point, and absolutely agreed.

I'm glad I didn't have to dive with my Nitrox instructor. He freely admitted that he didn't know anything about how Nitrox was actually created, just that he could get it in his tanks. He also clearly had no idea what oxygen toxicity actually was. I'm glad I didn't have to get into the water with him..

 

[artw]

He also clearly had no idea what oxygen toxicity actually was. I'm glad I didn't have to get into the water with him..

and this idiot is qualified to teach nitrox? hello mcfly? please tell me you didnt have any alternate source of nitrox instruction down there.
you should have come up here and got it in Kingston

 

[Hoosier]

The answer should be within the nitrox course standard and requirement. If you get the extra training and knowledge except the nitrox requirement, it would be great to everyone. But, don't generalize your experience. Based on PADI standard and requriement, extra diving requirement for Nitrox class is only for LDS, not for the student. What does it mean, tasting nitrox or showing off the nitrox sticker?

 

[jonnythan]

and this idiot is qualified to teach nitrox? hello mcfly? please tell me you didnt have any alternate source of nitrox instruction down there.
you should have come up here and got it in Kingston

Apparently if you're an instructor and you simply take a Nitrox course, you're suddenly qualified to *teach* it.

I'm not certain about that, but I'd hope no training class would let him get away otherwise..

 

[Lead_carrier]

If you are in a situation that you are able to just grab a tank and run out and do a couple of dives, then by doing a couple of nitrox dives would be fantastic.

Example: You've prepared a mix for an 85' dive. The dive boat gets to the site and there are two fishing boats tied in. Captain of the dive op scratches that site, and moves to a deeper wreck with a bottom of 135', but with the deck at 105’, the wheelhouse at 95' and some light structure starting at 60’. Experienced nitrox divers see the issues and opportunities right away for this dive, but would the person who just completed her on-line or classroom-only recognition class be fully prepared to adjust the dive plan? What a great opportunity for an instructor to seize this teachable moment and guide some decision-making judgment calls. How many ways could this dive plan be altered on the fly before jumping in the water? What risks would the new nitrox users face? Now throw in issues involving currents and a host of other un-planned contingencies... Your computer goes south – pull out the tables and dive anyway. Buy you’re using non-standard mixes (say, a 34% and a 40% EAN). Hmmm… time to use what you learned about equivalent air depth. These are all unplanned contingencies that a good instructor can introduce, and guide a new nitrox user through. (And yes, there are a lot of mix options other than 32%!)

.

Using this scenerio, instead of nitrox class, lets just suppose it's a rescue class. Should the student be required to perform two real rescues in order to complete the class. Almost anyone can be taught all the right moves in any type of class but whether or not they will or can apply that knowledge will never be known until they are faced with the real deal. Whether it be in an OW class, nitrox or rescue.

 

[trevinkorea]

OK I see the point about not doing the dives but as a student I would want the dives and I would hope to learn a new skill or at least practice and reinforce an old one. This is of course, if it were possible to dive in the area. I have almost always lived within driving distance of the ocean and forgot about all the inland divers. If I were inland, I would want a theory only course too.

If there were no dives included or at least something of interest to suppliment the nitrox theory, I would find this course really boring. I took the PADI nitrox course and the book, or should I call it a pamphlet, was not all that interesting or even informative.

I think nitrox should be included in OW or AOW for the newer divers or as an inexpensiveself study course for the more experienced divers. I think I blew through all the theory on my own in about an hour, possibly less, while drinking soju. It was far from challenging.

I know of at least a couple of shops in Vancouve that offer nitrox as a componant of OW and think it is a great idea. With OW you will never go deeper than your MOD for a standard nitrox mix nor will you ever be able to exceed the NDL limits on a single AL80 so there is really no danger in using the gas. PLEASE do correct me if I am wrong or have missed something. It may be pointless for a new diver to be using it with an AL80 in the first place but at least theywill have the knowlege if they are handed a bottle of nitrox at some point.
As for the instructor, if they are not competant and can't answer thier students questions fully, they shouldn't be teaching in the first place.

I found the PADI program too simple and not informative enough. I hope when I take an advanced nitrox course I will finally get all my questions answered.

 

[Firebrand]

As a product of the no dive requirement for a nitrox course, wouldn't the example MB originally asked require more calculations of MOD instead of EAD?

 

[Don Burke]

OK I see the point about not doing the dives but as a student I would want the dives and I would hope to learn a new skill or at least practice and reinforce an old one. This is of course, if it were possible to dive in the area. I have almost always lived within driving distance of the ocean and forgot about all the inland divers. If I were inland, I would want a theory only course too.

No one is keeping you from diving to develop skills.

My point is that no nitrox related value is added to the nitrox course by diving.

If there were no dives included or at least something of interest to suppliment the nitrox theory, I would find this course really boring. I took the PADI nitrox course and the book, or should I call it a pamphlet, was not all that interesting or even informative.

There is nothing keeping you from diving. I do not see why I should be required to dive with an LDC because you need something to amuse you.

I think nitrox should be included in OW or AOW for the newer divers or as an inexpensiveself study course for the more experienced divers. I think I blew through all the theory on my own in about an hour, possibly less, while drinking soju. It was far from challenging.

Nitrox is sometimes taught along with AOW. Teaching it with OW would seem to serve to dilute OW.

I know of at least a couple of shops in Vancouve that offer nitrox as a componant of OW and think it is a great idea. With OW you will never go deeper than your MOD for a standard nitrox mix nor will you ever be able to exceed the NDL limits on a single AL80 so there is really no danger in using the gas. PLEASE do correct me if I am wrong or have missed something. It may be pointless for a new diver to be using it with an AL80 in the first place but at least theywill have the knowlege if they are handed a bottle of nitrox at some point.

By that reasoning, trimix should be taught in OW. I do not buy it.

The oxygen clock calculations would add too much complexity to OW. We need more basic skills taught in OW, not less.

As for the instructor, if they are not competant and can't answer thier students questions fully, they shouldn't be teaching in the first place.

I found the PADI program too simple and not informative enough. I hope when I take an advanced nitrox course I will finally get all my questions answered.

There is nothing keeping you from cracking some other books. It was a nitrox course, not post-graduate physiology.