Should diving agencies have stricter requirements for certification and check?

[jord1990]

I heard from someone that theoretically your octo is only for yourself. And that if you would read the manual it would say that the first stage doesn't allow more then 1 diver. That's why wreck divers have 2 separate first stages.
Not saying I wouldnt give my octo to my buddy but just in theory.

 

[the other lincoln]

- fin flapping == FAIL

Dose fin flapping mean flutter kicks or something else?

 

[eelnoraa]

I totally agree this is a two-part issue, inital training vs frequent reinforcement. However, (1) initial trianing comes before (2) frequent reinforcement (2). If someone didn't go through (1), there will never be (2). Now, if someone go through a low quality (1), the (2) is just to reinforcee the low quality (1). So I still think having a good quality initial training is more important. And yes, I do think the current dive industrial standard is low, very low. Not just the students, but some instructors also. So I always give kudo to instructors who go above and beyong the min standard.

---------- Post added October 1st, 2013 at 11:06 AM ----------

I heard from someone that theoretically your octo is only for yourself. And that if you would read the manual it would say that the first stage doesn't allow more then 1 diver. That's why wreck divers have 2 separate first stages.
Not saying I wouldnt give my octo to my buddy but just in theory.

You should stop listening to that someone

---------- Post added October 1st, 2013 at 11:08 AM ----------

Dose fin flapping mean flutter kicks or something else?

No really. There are ways to do flutter kicks properly so even if you are near a sandy bottom, you won't kick up anything. Unfortunity, not all instructors know how it should be done. At least, when I am looking back now, it wasn't taught properly in my OW and AOW

 

[Nirvana]

I heard from someone that theoretically your octo is only for yourself. And that if you would read the manual it would say that the first stage doesn't allow more then 1 diver. That's why wreck divers have 2 separate first stages.
Not saying I wouldnt give my octo to my buddy but just in theory.

The octo is to be used by the the diver that is carrying it in case his primary second stage fails ore by another diver who, for some reason, cannot find another air source. The reason for the warning on first stage manuals is that the regulator will have its performance severely compromised, in terms of maximum gas flow and work of breath, in case there are two divers breathing from it, and may not conform, in this event, to the standards set by regulatory agencies.

As to divers who use two first stage regulators, they do so to ensure that, in case one of their first stage fails, they do not lose access to their gas source - in others words, to increase redundancy and thus safety.

 

[cocoajoe]

Ok, this is coming from someone who has more than a passing interest in animals and that includes marine life so just label me as the loudmouthed newbie and move on if your interest doesn't lie there.

Just about all of us know that there's big money only if a business gets a steady flow of paying customers and diving agencies are no different but we also know that the majority of divers worldwide will only dive once or twice a year or every few years and so every new trip is an 'unguided refresher course' which means the skill level doesn't improve with most actually going downhill as they struggle to recall what they've learnt or were supposed to be able to do to be certified.

I've seen a lot of supposedly experienced divers unable to control themselves and caused untold damage to the marine environment with others relying on pointers to stop or anchor themselves even when there's no current. The term 'buddy check' has become as common as breathing and taken for granted that way too with many not bothering to carry it out or consider it necessary. Dodgy equipment is also common and many divers do not bother to check whether they can deploy their short hose alternate air supplies quickly should their buddies need one. They loop or clip them off on the first point they can find just to get them out of the way and I've heard of divers saying that inflator / alternate air combinations are for them just in case their primary 2nd stages fail and that they're sorry they cannot be of assistance to other divers in out of air situations because they don't have an octopus.

All these could have been rectified by a few more practice sessions which conveyor belt style of certifying will not provide ample time and opportunities to develop. By the way, this is not a PADI bash because it's definitely the fault of the instructors (which could have been from anywhere) BUT what if stricter requirements were set in stone (paper and ink actually) and the agencies actually bothered to check whether they've been fulfilled to the point of getting staff to masquerade as new divers every now and then?

Every sport requires practice to be the proverbial perfect and diving's no different. Why then do we have countless people jumping into the sea once in a very blue moon with a life support system strapped on which they're not only unfamiliar with (since many of them are rented) but with questionable skillsets which were questionable even from day one? In land based sports, at most, you risk potentially serious injuries as an uncoached participant if you take things too far but diving's different. Dying's a very real risk even in relatively shallow water. All it'll take is a few seconds from an airless supply resulting in panic before the average diver takes a few swallows of water and give up.

By the way, I'm thinking of coming up with a proposal to the dive centres here to find at least one which will support skill practice session only trips to nearby dive sites. With the sea so close by, it's difficult to get divers wanting to practice in swimming pools and as said earlier, the sea's nearby so we might as well practice in a saltwater environment since that's where they're most likely to be in on trips. What I foresee to be in the way will be sufficient tanks, the lower profits (hoping one will agree to charge less than leisure dive fees to entice certified divers to come practice on a regular basis) and manpower since many instructors function as dive guides when there are no students. Will this work or help in your part of the world?

Were you high when you wrote this?

 

[WhiteSands]

I would definitely be interested in something like this. In fact I rent tanks at the local pool just to practice skills with my buddy. But the pool is boring.

Why not just give it a try, nothing to lose.

 

[ams511]

Were you high when you wrote this?

He is not that far off-base. In the Keys they have done this. I am not not sure of the success rate. However the diver should be responsible enough to assess their own skill level and decide what dives are doable and what dives are not. Certainly, it is foolish to try a challenging dive after a long layoff.

One of the things that has not been discussed is the dive industry's blind reliance of cert cards. All as a cert card means is that you passed the required skills at a certain date. You may not still have those skills anymore but the dive industry pretends that you do. I remember fighting with a girl at the dive shop when I said I wanted a easy dive trip and she tried to book me on a wreck dive because I have an advanced cert. The fact that I mentioned it was a while since I dove fell on deaf ears. She just wanted to fill up the boat. Needless to say I never went back to that shop.

 

[Steve_C]

others who do less than 20 dives a year.

20 dives a year in NC is 10 dive trips that do not get blown out. That's one a month. I dive with a number of good divers that do 10-20 dives a year. As somebody with a day job and a weekend family I manage to do 40-50 a year total weather permitting.

On a different note, all fretting about the poor training of many divers aside, I believe the data shows that for the last several decades the rate of diving deaths per capita has been dropping, or at least has dropped.

 

[TMHeimer]

From one angle or another, this topic may be the most discussed one I've seen on SB--Whether it's people comparing 40 years ago's training to today's, or instructor abilities (then vs. now?), the business aspect (ie. agency wars, profits over safety), "vacation divers" are now a larger % of the pie, on and on.

I started 8 years ago and have dived regularly, starting with maybe 30 dives a year to the present of about 70. Though I didn't really start practising the "pool" skills we all know until Rescue and DM courses (I should have, but I imagine many don't), I did gradually improve buoyancy skills and increased depth and variety of dives, different locales, etc. Of course, I took AOW and several specialties. Having said all that, I think if one dives REGULARLY and gradually extends limits, the average OW course of today is pretty good. Now if you want to Cave dive or down to 130', or tech. dive, that's not simple OW course diving. As I have often said, I would like basic rescue skills in OW, but that's another thread.

I think that with today's "weekend" courses, it is true that you receive an OW cert. card which says you have satisfactorily done said skills, but that's all it says. It may be "assumed" that you will now "study" the activity--by diving, talking to other (more experienced) divers, joining SB, etc. OR, you can be a Vacation diver being lead by a DM. As far as reef damage because of that, I don't know what to say.

Regardless, with today's short courses, I don't know how much more training can be fit into one weekend of pool then 4 checkout dives. IOM, an awful lot is already packed into 2 days (I'm glad I took the week night OW course). You'd just have to make the course a lot longer and probably charge a lot more--I know some on SB do--well at least make it longer, I don't know what they charge. As far as improving instructors, well there are good and bad school teachers also--always were, always will be. Making changes to courses won't solve that.

 

[Bottom Surveyor]

I heard from someone that theoretically your octo is only for yourself. And that if you would read the manual it would say that the first stage doesn't allow more then 1 diver. That's why wreck divers have 2 separate first stages.
Not saying I wouldnt give my octo to my buddy but just in theory.

Whoever has told you this, has told you utter nonsense.

Virtually all first regulator stages are capable of delivering much more gas than two divers could ever breathe.
For instance, Mares Abyss MR22 set a world record when 101 diver breathed simultaneously from it for 40 minutes, without overwhelming it.