Shopping for first scuba gear...

[Colliam7]

after all, you don't really know what you don't know until you know you don't know it, right?

Absolutely. Diving is an eternal learning experience, whether you have 10 dives, 100 dives, 1000 dives, 10,000 dives. Every time can be an opportunity to learn something new.

The BP/W option had been mentioned by the second dive shop as a more advanced option for when I was getting into multiple tanks / technical...

And, that kind of comment is unfortunately a) all too common, and b) complete rubbish. You even saw comments like that in this thread - that somehow a BP is (only) a setup for doubles or technical diving. I recently worked with a very experienced diver / dive shop owner who was transitioning to the PADI system and was completing his staff instructor training. Good guy, good diver, etc. And, he said during one session that he believed that backplates were only for technical diving, and had no place in recreational diving - simply not at all true, but definitely a fervently held belief for him. So, if you came to his shop, you would have probably heard the same thing that you heard from the second dive shop.

The funny thing is, if you ask someone about 'Why' a BP is only for doubles or is only for technical diving, they cannot give a good answer, While most (not all) back-mount doubles divers I know do use a backplate, and virtually all technical divers I know do use a backplate, many, many, many recreational divers I know also use a backplate. I teach private OW students using a backplate (for the student, not just for me). There is simply no reason that it cannot be used successfully and comfortably by the new recreational diver. That doesn't mean that a BP/W is the only BCD solution for everyone. As I said in my previous post, equipment doesn't make the diver, and a good diver can generally function with virtually any type of equipment. I can function with a single AL80 in a 5mm wet suit. I prefer a single steel HP 100 for buoyancy characteristics and gas supply. I can function with a jacket BCD; I prefer a steel backplate for a number of specific reasons (stability, inherent buoyancy / trim characteristics, cost, etc).

From the sounds of it, such a bp/w setup could be disassembled so I'd be able to travel with just the wing and a lighter weight / plate to warmer climes, yes? Would it also be safe to assume that the wing can be packed into a relatively small size?

Yes, and yes. I am going to Bonaire for a week, at the end of the month. I am taking a steel BP (I have enough bioprene that I am never over-weighted with a steel BP, irrespective of what exposure suit I dive), and three different wings (18lb, 30lb, and 50lb - I don't NEED 3 wings for Bonaire the 18lb will do for my personal diving, rather I am doing some gear evaluations), all of which can be compactly folded (and I put my BP in the computer slot in my backpack).

The other big question I'd have with the bp/w bcds is just with respect to dumping the air... I know when we were training with the jacket style in the pools, they were a pain to get empty because you'd have to roll awkwardly to get the hose / shoulder to be the highest part of the jacket. The back style seemed very similar, though (and this may be an incorrect assumption on my part) I assumed the bungees on the knighthawk would have helped somewhat by compressing the bladder. Is this a common issue with all bcds, or something I can figure out a macgyver'd solution to, or something that I just need to learn to deal with?

Most BCDs - jacket or back-inflation (a BP/W is simply one type of back-inflation BCD) - have butt dumps, some on both sides, some only on one side. But, unfortunately, all too often in OW training, students are not taught to effectively use butt dumps. Plus, too many OW students are over-weighted (by their instructor), and end up swimming in a foot-low position, so the butt dump is useless. If you are properly - horizontally - trimmed, a butt dump can be a real asset - just hitch your butt up a tiny bit, pull the dump, and lose air.

Regarding the first stage, I don't think any of the dive shops I went to were very clear on what they were including in the package. I suppose I just assumed it was bundled with the second stage. Again this goes to show how I can do all the research I want but if I'm not asking the right questions I won't get the right answers!

And, too often the dive shops do not give you detail on what is in their 'package' - one of the many reasons I discourage new(er) divers from buying any 'package'. Frankly, I am surprised that a shop in your area would have recommended the XTX20 for colder water. I have a couple, and have had free-flow issues with one of them several times, albeit in 43 degree water. Personally, I like, and prefer, Apeks regs (along with certain Zeagles), but I have Mares and Sherwood regs as well, and they work just fine. What I like about the Apeks regs - yes, they breath really well, yes Apeks service is widely available around the world, yes the quality of manufacture is superb, etc - is the weight of the first stage - generally their first stages are a bit heavier, which supports my preference desire to move weight up toward the top of my torso, to benefit horizontal trim. But, frankly, most mid-level regs are fully functional and safe, and debating whether Apeks is better than Scubapro is better than HOG is better than Atomics, etc. is not a functional use of time. You are not going to service your own regs at this point. Buy something that can be serviced locally, by a facility that you are comfortable doing business with.

Above all, keep asking questions - here, in dive shops, with other divers you meet, get as much information as you can, and approach your gear purchases in a reasonably slow, thoughtful, and methodical manner.

 

[freename]

Frankly, I am surprised that a shop in your area would have recommended the XTX20 for colder water.

To be entirely fair to this shop, I should mention that the pamphlet actually says XTX20 or Egress - my memory just failed on the second octo when I posted, and I swapped the two. From the apeks website, it'd seem that the egress would be their the cold water option.

... oops?

Buy something that can be serviced locally, by a facility that you are comfortable doing business with.

This is why I'm concerned with HOG... I hadn't heard the name before, and it seems (from what little I can dig up) that they're a relatively new brand. Would they be widely serviceable, or would I be better off going with an 'older' brand name?

 

[scubadiver888]

I started when most the shops in the Toronto area were all selling jacket style BCDs. Even today there are shops which might have back inflate but no true BP/W configurations. When you go to a shop who you talk to will make a difference. Some shops everyone is on the same page but many will have some who are knowledgeable on BP/W and most the staff are more comfortable with jacket style BCDs.

As for using it for travel, it is modular. I dive steel plate with steel tanks at home. I wear a 7mm wetsuit so I'm very positively buoyant. When I tried using the steel plate with steel tanks and my 3mm wetsuit I found I could sink with ZERO weight. I was actually too heavy. So I switch to an aluminum plate. Now I find I need 2 pound to sink. When I travel I switch to an aluminum tank and use 8 pounds to sink (the aluminum plate is 6 pounds less buoyant).

Yesterday I was diving in Texas. There were people with traditional BCDs and a few with travel BCDs. After the dive I was cleaning my wing then I collapsed it and went to put it in my dive bag. A few people were amazed at how small it packed. It was as small if not smaller than even the travel BCDs. My new wing has bungee on the inside and it pulls it small when you let the air out but it still has issues with dumping air. I'm not worried about this. You just get good at dumping air. In some cases, like when I'm first descending, I just go head down and dump air from my butt valve. I actually found the bungee puts folds in the wing material and air gets caught in it. I'm thinking about removing the bungee since the water pressure will collapse the wing underwater. The bungee really only helps when you are above water.

At this point I have a steel plate and harness for cold water diving, an aluminum plate and harness for warm water diving. All the extras (pocket, light, knife, etc.) can be moved from one harness to the other harness. This way my configuration is fairly consistent. If I decide to go technical I can continue to use the same backplate and extras but just change the wing to a doubles wing. I'm pretty happy with my BP/W. The only downside is that there is more than one way to configure the thing and the number of options/opinions are endless.

As for regulators, a good experience every time is a good reason to get your own regulators. If my regulators start breathing poorly (it never just totally fails) I can send them in for service and they come back breathing like they are new. Some things to watch out for however are 'parts for life'. Some regulators guarantee parts for life but the fine print indicate you have to have them serviced every year (or every other year). If you miss a year the free parts is over. If you want to sell the regulators, the buyer does not get parts for life. So they tend to have less resell value. Additionally, you cannot service them yourself and MUST take them to an authorized service centre. What this typically means is a normal regulator set might be $60 to service and $30 for parts. Total $90. The 'parts for life' regulator must be serviced at an authorized service centre. If they charge $100 to service them the total cost is more than most other regulators. Additionally, if the regulator is working fine you might not get it serviced a EXACTLY the warranty time. With the 'parts for life' regulator you will HAVE to get them serviced, even if you needed the money for a car repair and wanted to push off the regulator service for a few months.

Bottom line, nothing in life is free. You will end up paying for it in the long run.

As for why you might not have heard of Hog regulators... I might purchase a regulator set for $500. This set might last me 25 years. If I never needed to have them serviced by the shop (i.e. I service them myself) then I'd be paying $500 every 25 years or $20/year. If I need the shop to service the regulator for me then I'm probably spending $60 a year. Even if I only service them every other year, I'd spending $30/year. In other words, the servicing of your regulator is worth more to a shop than the actual regulator sale. So if a company is promoting the regulators as something you can service yourself (Hog) then a lot of shops would not be interested in selling them.

A good shop will sell you the first stage, second stage, octo and pressure gauge (or console if you want pressure, depth, compass, etc.). Usually the manufacturer will sell the first and second stage as one 'part' then the octo as a third part, the SPG or console as a fourth part. So if you are buying things online you might not be getting everything a reputable, local shop would be selling you.

Also, most regulators are going to work well. It is only if they are not serviced that they tend to have issues. Rental regulators are probably abused and poorly serviced. You could buy the exact same model and take good care of it. I would say you want to either spend a lot of money and buy the best regulator you can after lots of research or you want to buy something reasonably priced with the idea that you'll use it for a few years (possibly 10 years) then sell it used to someone. Then with the money you sold it for, buy something better. I bought something I could afford and it helped me get a lot more diving in. Years later I learned what I did and did not like about it. I then spent twice as much money on something a lot nicer.

I like your thinking on the console. I started with a computer, gauge, compass, etc. and it was okay. I sold it and used the money to buy a pressure gauge, wrist computer and compass. I'm a lot happier.

After 13 years I'd still diving wet. The cost of a drysuit is a lot of money. I could get something inexpensive but I just decided to save up and get a really nice drysuit. The bottom line to all of this however is get what you need to make more diving possible. If you buy the regulator would renting a wetsuit be sufficient to get you diving? For me, getting to the shop to rent the gear I needed was difficult. So I ended up buying some things and later realizing I needed everything (including tanks) to make diving more accessible. If you can find a shop with reliable regulators and wetsuit, you could buy the BCD (or BP/W) and rent the rest for a while.

The other option is to buy what you think you want new from a store but get the rest used. For example, a wing with a hole in it (or close to worn out) is a bad idea. A regulator which you can get serviced at a shop you trust can be serviced and then it as good as new. So maybe buying a used regulator is okay. If a shop has a wetsuit you like, renting the wetsuit might be fine.

 

[tbone1004]

Egress is just as bad with no adjustment knob. A pair of matching second stages is crucial for safe diving, and the adjustment knobs make it nice to desensitize them.

HOG has been around for around 7 years and they are very popular with the tech divers because the vast majority of us service our own regs and the parts kits are easily available. The president of Hog has recently left but one of the original investors is still their and their shop manager Jack has now taken over. This hasn't spooked anyone nor should it. The brand has a lifetime warranty on the hard parts of their regs, and many people have been diving them. Resale is obviously not as high as Apeks or Scubapro, but there's no need to really bother selling them. I dive Poseidon for backgas because I like them, but my stages and deco regs are all Hog. I sold my Apeks regs because of them, as did many divers. There are still some out there that were burned by a few years of funky HP seats that caused failures, but about 2 years ago they switched suppliers and to my knowledge there haven't been any reported HP seat failures. For the record, the same thing happened to Apeks a few years ago, Poseidon a few years ago, Scubapro I'm sure has had it happen to them. **** happens, life goes on, and the soft parts are no reflection on the quality of the metal. Anyone that can service Apeks and DiveRite regs knows how to service the Hogs, they're basically the same on the inside, though realistically most diaphragms follow one of two basic design principles. Poseidon has one, Apeks has the other, but they all work the same way, neither one is better than the other.

WRT the awkward bending and contorting to dump in stab jackets. If you lean just a tough to the right, the wings all dump fine, but you should only need that on initial descent when you are overweighted due to air in the tanks and don't need to dump everything out. You should only really be using the rear dumps during the dive which are not a problem. Slight lean to the right and head down if you need it, but usually not.

WRT Travel. You would not want to take the harness off of the wings to switch them over, too much of a pain, not worth it. Wings swap over easy enough with two sex bolts or the wing nuts if you have a hard STA. Like in my comments to mr. lacks common sense, the SS BP/W combo is only a few lbs heavier than that I3 abomination, and I have taken a full set of singles gear including steel plate as carryon. They are small enough to just fit as the hard bottom of most carryon luggages, and the weight limits are like 40-50lbs for carryon. Everything except your wet wetsuit will be WELL under 40lbs. 12lbs for the bp/w ish, 5lbs max for reg set, 10lbs for misc stuff, 5lbs for mask and fins. Plenty of room. Other nice thing about the BP/W is they dry faster than stab jackets, so you can hang them up on the shower rack and they'll be dry in the morning, jacket bc's take a millenia to dry out fully because of all of the fabric *although my nomad does the same, but can't dive a hard plate in sidemount.

I have no idea what you look like physically, but if for whatever reason the one piece harness doesn't work for you, don't get discouraged with the system, try a few other harness styles. I can't stand the one piece harness if I have to go more than about 10 feet with gear on. Both of my arms fall asleep and start losing circulation, but it's a function of my upper body build, and with large traps, the harness falls to the side and pinches stuff off. I much prefer to have a chest strap and quick releases, so when I was diving backmount regularly, I had a transplate with the pads removed. Other buddies of mine like the shoulder pads so they dive with a normal transplate. The pads are nice, but I actually prefer a tube of neoprene for shoulder pads instead of the normal pads on the transplate. Downfall there is you are limited to the one D-ring which doesn't bother me, but bothers some

 

[Six Feet Under]

You're not "saving" 7-10 lbs using a backplate, you're MOVING most of that to a different location. You're "saving" maybe 2-3 lbs of weight. I completely understand that FOR YOU a jacket BC isn't worth the extra $ or weight. That doesn't mean it's not worth it to other people. As evidenced by the prevalence of jacket BC's in the dive world.

Just because a lot of people own something, doesn't make it a great choice. It means a lot of people either think it was a great choice, didn't know any better because they were misled, or haven't tried any other options.

I use a regular back inflate BC, not a BP/W setup, and I loved the jacket BC's I used in my open water class... until I tried something else. Same goes with my BCD, now I'm wishing I would have tried a BP/W before I spent $600 on my Mares Hybrid Pro-Tec.

 

[kmurray719]

Just because a lot of people own something, doesn't make it a great choice. It means a lot of people either think it was a great choice, didn't know any better because they were misled, or haven't tried any other options.

I use a regular back inflate BC, not a BP/W setup, and I loved the jacket BC's I used in my open water class... until I tried something else. Same goes with my BCD, now I'm wishing I would have tried a BP/W before I spent $600 on my Mares Hybrid Pro-Tec.

I think people should borrow, rent and try as many different kinds of everything as they possibly can before making a decision about what to buy so they make a choice that is best for them. My point was that there are people who think backplate/wing setups are the right answer for everyone, and I disagree. I know multiple people who have tried them, or owned them, and gone back to a jacket BC for various reasons. That doesn't make them wrong or stupid or anything but someone who has tried a bp/w and not liked it and made the choice that was right for them.

 

[tbone1004]

those people also need to try the alternate harnesses out there because the modular plate system is in fact superior in every way to a jacket bc, and the comfort thing can be fixed by using something like a transpac if you want a 100% soft system, or a transplate if you want the extra weight. You can buy a transpac with wing and weight pockets for $650 or so, right around the price of all of the back inflate systems, and the higher end stab jackets. You get a much more durable system with the superfabric wings, and overall higher quality assembly, they're also made in the USA which is important for a lot of people, the system is more adjustable so if you gain a few lbs or lose a few lbs, you're not having to buy a new bcd. The lift is adjustable, so if you're a a petite woman who is really floaty, you can pick a wing size that is approriate, same as the big guy who sinks. No need to worry about the big guy having 45lbs of lift when he only needs 20, or that woman only having 20 when she needs 40. The transpacs have the foam backpacks that are very comfortable, have the harness plates that allow the shoulder straps to be run like a hiking pack which is what the transpac was originally designed to do and they carry the weight much better than the one piece harnesses. Anyone who goes from a BP/W back to a back inflate or stab jacket needs to have tried a system like the Transplate or Hollis Elite Harness before they go away from what is truly a superior system.

Case in point, OP goes and tries a BP/W and decides he doesn't like the one piece harness, no problem but finds he likes the transplate, cool. Instead of $380, he spends $620 *realistically $500 since you can buy the package I listed on page 1 and buy a transplate harness for $120, but trying to give the I3 a fighting chance*, no big deal. He goes on a wreck dive and somehow cuts his wing, $200 to replace the wing, and good to go.
If instead, he bought that I3, and spend $530 on it, and that gets cut, he's in for a whole new BCD and the whole thing is completely useless and has to get trashed. Now off to spend another $530 to replace it. Does this happen often, no, but it does happen. At least with the BP/W his harness and plate is still good and you can use any wing you can get a hold of, regularly they can be had for $100 used.

My main point here is so many people get discouraged with the plates and wings because of the one piece harness. They don't think to go spend $120 on a harness like the transplate to make the whole system more comfortable for them while still holding all of the benefits. GUE and the DIR crowd doesn't like them because there are failure points *I'm sorry, but the paratroopers jump out of planes using sewn harnesses, and the buckles are rating for well over 1klbs of tensile strength, so that's people drinking the Kool-Aid* but if that means that someone is more comfortable diving a superior system, that is also cheaper! then they should.


I 100% guarantee you that if you buy the bp/w system over the knighthawk, decide you don't like it, buy the transplate and still don't like it, I'll buy the system from you so you can buy a knighthawk.