Shopping for first scuba gear...

[kmurray719]

I suggest you dive an i3, if you cannot figure out how much cleaner the hose routing it by looking out at it. There is no corrugated hose. The hose attachment point is on the BCD, not on a dangly bit. Sherwood used to make a similar drysuit inflator valve setup BCD, and it was awesome for intro gear because it did away with the dangly corrugated hose. (But, of course a certified diver would need an Octo, which an intro diver does not need, which reintroduces a different hose.)

I would not use an i3 personally, because I use Air2's but getting rid of the corrugated hose is a good thing. People who use drysuits for buoyancy control may forget how much of a PITA corrugated hoses are for buoyancy control for many divers, especially smaller framed divers. The i3 is a dream to use when the BCD, and not the drysuit, is being used for underwater buoyancy control. (Yes there are drawbacks, but there is with every system.)

In fact some of the people who use them like them because i3 equipped BCDs are "as easy to use as a drysuit for underwater buoyancy control" Quoting roughly, what they said.

You can very easily attach a corrugated hose with an air2 to an i3 BC. I know multiple people who dive a set up like that.

 

[tbone1004]

I've seen them before, but it's the longer LPI hose, and it still has the pull dealy up on the shoulder anyway. With a corrugated hose bungeed to the left D-rings, it's pretty darn streamlined. Also means that in a real O-sh!t moment I can't breathe off of the inflator by holding both buttons down. Plus, the ever so slight streamline increase by lack of corrugated hose is negated by the rest of the rig having the hip weight pouches creating drag, and having all the padding which will require at least 2-3lbs of lead to sink the system as a whole. When I was still diving singles, I'd do anything to get weight off my belt, steel tanks, saves 5lbs, BP/W saves 10lbs. All I'm saying is does saving a corrugated hose with this system justify spending an extra $150 and carrying an extra 7-10lbs of weight on the surface over a SS backplate.

The corrugated hose for small frame divers is no excuse, a philips head screwdriver and $15 for a new hose gets you a custom length hose where you can shorten them up properly.

Never said a one piece harness was the end all be all, I don't dive one and don't like them because I have a big chest, small waist, the fit is horrible, but something like the transplate is a better solution than the jacket bc's, they're also cheaper and have better resale if the diver decides to get out of diving. If this thread was about travel warm water diving, the answer would be very different, but for cold water diving in Canada, it's a whole different ball game

 

[Imla]

Personally... Diving in Norway, and seeing what people dive around here, I would down grade your primary to a XTX50, and upgrade your secondary to an XTX 50
Both are great performers in cold water, and give good value for money.

Also... diving drysuits for the most part, I am very partial to my BP/W and would definitively recommend that.

 

[kmurray719]

I've seen them before, but it's the longer LPI hose, and it still has the pull dealy up on the shoulder anyway. With a corrugated hose bungeed to the left D-rings, it's pretty darn streamlined. Also means that in a real O-sh!t moment I can't breathe off of the inflator by holding both buttons down. Plus, the ever so slight streamline increase by lack of corrugated hose is negated by the rest of the rig having the hip weight pouches creating drag, and having all the padding which will require at least 2-3lbs of lead to sink the system as a whole. When I was still diving singles, I'd do anything to get weight off my belt, steel tanks, saves 5lbs, BP/W saves 10lbs. All I'm saying is does saving a corrugated hose with this system justify spending an extra $150 and carrying an extra 7-10lbs of weight on the surface over a SS backplate.e

You're not "saving" 7-10 lbs using a backplate, you're MOVING most of that to a different location. You're "saving" maybe 2-3 lbs of weight. I completely understand that FOR YOU a jacket BC isn't worth the extra $ or weight. That doesn't mean it's not worth it to other people. As evidenced by the prevalence of jacket BC's in the dive world.

 

[radtype]

I have a dimension with I3. Love it. By pressing down on I3, you dump air from both dump valves. Very comfortable.

 

[tbone1004]

nope, you are really saving 7-10.

BP/W, 10lbs negative, about 12lbs on the surface
I3 probably 2lbs positive in the water, 8lbs on surface. So by adding 4lbs of weight to the BCD sans weight in the pockets/belt, you take 12lbs of lead off of the weight belt or out of the QR pockets that you don't have to worry about at all. That's just logical. Same argument against AL80's in cold water, it's just stupid, you're carrying 35lbs for 77cf of gas plus the 5lbs required to sink the tank, instead of carrying a HP100 that weighs 33lbs and is 1lb negative in the water. Why carry an extra 8lbs when you don't have to.
This is all negated if you are diving in warm water where you don't need that much lead, but when you are talking 7mm wetsuits, hooded vests, and cold water, that's a lot of neoprene to sink and it is safer to do it with a backplate system than it is with a QR pocket system or with a weightbelt. That 10lbs negative on the plate is 10lbs you can't ditch by accident so the whole system is safer, that's the point of diving a balanced rig. Ideal solution is to have the whole rig balanced so when you are at the surface with tanks at 500psi you are right about neutral, if you are a couple of pounds positive, you put that on a belt or in a pocket that is ditchable for safety at the surface, but being 4-5lbs positive with ditchable weight is a helluva lot safer than being 20lbs+positive if you lose a weighbelt or have to ditch a pocket. 4lbs you can kick against to get depth compensation if you have to go down again, good luck with 20lbs

 

[scubadiver888]

Hey freename,

I used to live in Toronto. Definitely not a world renown dive destination. I like the dive shops outside of Toronto (Richmond Hill, Oshawa, Oakville).

I'd recommend a good wetsuit. You'll get what you paid for. If you buy a good wetsuit you'll be more comfortable. If you are more comfortable you'll dive more. So the first thing I would recommend is a good wetsuit.

After that I'd recommend getting a good computer. You can always rent regulators and BCD. If you have a good wetsuit and a dive computer it will help you dive more. The more you dive the better you'll get. The better you get the more you'll understand and appreciate a good set of regulators and BC. You might find you really want a backplate and wing (BP/W). I bought a jacket style and later realized I wanted a BP/W. Or you could realize that a back inflate isn't for you and you want a jacket style BCD.

If you do get the wetsuit and computer then still have money for regulators you have to think about getting them serviced. You'll buy them once but probably service them a dozen+ times. You could end up buying the regulators then find you don't trust the shop to service them. The shop I trust the most with my regulators does not service the brand my first set of regulators. The first time I got them serviced I was not happy with them. I complained but they still didn't get serviced well. I've since replaced them but that cost me more than I wanted to spend.

I took my time buying my next set. I learned who did the servicing at various shops. When I found shops which I trusted the service technician then I looked at what regulators they could service. Since I liked getting my regulators serviced locally (I've had problems with Canada Customs getting stuff shipped back from the USA), I restricted which regulators I'd get to something I was happy to get serviced locally.

I know a shop locally which services Mares regulators. So I considered them at one point. I don't know who services Apek but if a shop I trust did I'd consider them as well. I like the Mission 1 with a Puck computer. That is a good console. But for me I like a wrist computer.

tbone1004 has some good recommendations. I like the Zoop. Depending on how much shipping to Canada is, $150 is a good price. We don't have Black Friday in Canada. So if you are going to wait for that sale day you are either purchasing things online or traveling to the USA. I don't think you'll find scuba deals in Buffalo. If you are like me, you are traveling to the USA all the time and to places like Dallas, Chicago, Fort Lauderdale, Houston, San Francisco. So waiting for Black Friday makes sense.

I also like Waterproof and 4th Element. I just bought a Waterproof wetsuit fairly cheap. I bought it when I was in the USA but had the bill made out to my address in Canada so they didn't charge me tax.

 

[Mike126]

If you are convinced that you will dive alot then I would skip the "entry level" gear and go with something that will handle the conditions that you want to dive. Since you are in Canada, I would go with the Apeks or an Aqualung Legend LX Supreme. Spend the money once and let these regs last you a very long time.

A good fitting wetsuit is truely essential for cold water. You may even want to look at a drysuit instead. They do cost more but since your primary diving is very cold water then it will extend your season and be much more comfortable.

The BPW debate is never ending. I personally went form the jacket to rear inflate to BPW. I like my BPW alot but its a personal choice. It may be worth renting a BPW if you can to give it a try.

The Zoop is a very nice basic computer. Since you are not diving with multiple gases etc its a good choice. If you want to download your dives to your computer, consider the Vyper instead. The interface cord is included (normally about $85 US). So for an extra $20 - $30 you get a few more features.

my 2 cents...

 

[Colliam7]

I'm fairly new to diving (as in, have only completed the open water dives for my PADI c-card) and have been looking into buying some gear. I'm looking at getting a regulator / octo, and bcd - . . . my dives would mostly be cold water . . . I'm looking for something that can travel reasonably well as well. While I am a beginner, I also don't want to be getting equipment that I'll quickly out-grow...I've gone to what are apparently the 3 major dive shops in my area, spoken with the people in each and gotten their recommendations. The package I'm thinking on taking is this:

• XTX200 regulator
• XTX20 octo
• the package comes with a 3 gauge console, but if I can get some savings I may downgrade to 1
• knighthawk BCD (or Dimension I3, but I don't know how I feel about that style of inflation/deflation...)

So... if anyone actually makes it this far... thoughts? Recommendations?

I made it to the end.

You are in the very common, and unenviable, position of being a new diver, wanting to buy gear to make diving more convenient (good for you, BTW, owning your own gear DOES often lead to more active diving), but not yet knowing enough about equipment, or having the base of experience to make informed choices that will ultimately serve you best. It does sound like you have done some investigating, and it definitely sounds like you have visited a dive shop. Since you asked, I will offer some general comments first then a few specific observations:

1. My primary (and fervent) recommendation - STOP, BREATHE, THINK - DON'T ACT, at least not yet. There are so many things in your description of the recommendations you got from the dive shops that raise red flags, it is hard to know where to begin to address them.

2. Do NOT buy from any of the dive shops that you have apparently visited. At least, don't buy without asking a lot more questions, and bluntly challenging their recommendations. A shop that would make the package recommendations that you have listed is not one that I would want to deal with. I am not at all saying that local dive shops are bad - in fact I encourage divers to use them. But, you have gotten some recommendations that are simply bad.

3. Go with a good exposure suit, that you will use for your local diving, AND that fits you well, first. Then a computer (Zoop is fine, others may have different suggestions). Then, find a local dive club - formal or informal - or a local group of divers who use different gear configurations, and dive with them (using rental gear for the time being) to find out what they use locally, and what they like / don't like, and why. Perhaps, use that opportunity to try their gear.

My specific thoughts on the products you mentioned:

Console: Do not buy a 3-gauge console - it is bulky and cumbersome. Go with a simple SPG that clips to a D-ring on you waist, with a wrist-mounted dive computer that provides depth and time, and a compass that you can mount on your wrist.

Regulator: You don't mention which Apeks first stage is included with the XTX200 / XTX20 setup, so it is hard to comment on that. (But, if someone is trying to sell you a XTX200, I doubt seriously that they are pushing a DS4 - more likely a FST or FSR - maybe a DST - all of which are good first stages, BTW.) I WOULD NOT buy either the XTX200, or the XTX20 second stage. The 200 is needlessly overpriced and the bells and whistles are unnecessary, and the XTX20 is not a great choice for the colder water you say will be diving much of the time. Go with two equivalent second stages. The notion of a cheaper, needlessly de-tuned, lower performance 'octo' is simply mis-guided, and an unfortunate holdover from a distant past. I recommend two XTX50s - the 40s that Mustard Dave mentions are OK, I personally have gone to the 50 as my 'do everything' second stage, because I prefer having both a venturi control and user-adjustable breathing. But, the key is two equivalent performance second stages, and second stages that are appropriate for colder water.

BCD: I have to agree with tbone about the steel backplate. Based on the kind of diving that you say you are going to be doing, I do not believe that you would be well-served by either the Knighthawk or the Dimension. Far too many (newer) divers buy 'floaty' BCDs that carry an inherent weight obligation just for the BCD - and both the Knighthawk and the I3 Dimension are good examples of floaty BCDs. Far too many divers buy weight-integrated BCDs that put the weight in absolutely the wrong place on the diver's body - and the Knighthawk and the I3 Dimension are good examples of that as well. Those units position the weight 'lower' on the diver's body (like a weight belt, unfortunately) - more toward the diver's waist, while the center of lift is 'higher' - more toward the diver's head. In the water, the center of weight aligns vertically (under) with the center of lift, which can force the diver into a foot down orientation. The same weight-integrated BCDs position the weight in front of the diver's vertical mid-line (seen from the side), while the lift is positioned aft of that midline, and that leads to the inaccurate characterization of rear-inflation BCDs as pushing the diver face forward / down in the water. Well, maybe not inaccurate, after all. That happens, because the divers are often over-weighted (in part, because of their floaty BCD adding to their weight obligation) and the weight is poorly positioned. They add air to the BCD on the surface to get their head out of the water, and the lift behind their midline and the weight in front of the midline push their face a little bit forward, so they add more air to counteract that, which only makes the situation worse.

If you were diving warm water with minimal neoprene, a floaty BCD wouldn't necessarily be issue. But, that is not what you are looking at in Toronto. When you add in the positive buoyancy of a 7mm wetsuit (or drysuit) you add in a significant additional weight obligation. Don't make that worse by diving in a floaty BCD. I have seen divers come to our local quarry for some cold water dives, wearing a 7mm suit, and a vest or a hood, and a floaty BCD they need 24 - 28 lbs to be able to descend! And, the majority of that is around / near their waist, and they swim at a 45 degree foot down angle in the water, stirring up the silty bottom. In contrast, a steel backplate moves the weight 'up'. toward the head, more aligned with the center of lift, where it should be.

I have watched more than a few divers using the I3 - unfortunately, in quite a few cases divers who bought the I3 from the shop where I teach; the unit is popular, and the margin is good for retailers. And many of the divers I have watched tell me just love the BCD because it is easy. Yes, the lever is so-o-o easy to use. Problem is, they use it all the time, without even thinking, without even realizing that they are. And, they are using it all the time, because the BCD is so floaty, and the weight distribution is so poor, and their horizontal trim - as a result - is so bad. It becomes a crutch that allows them to forego even thinking about achieving good buoyancy control, and using breathing instead of their BCD to achieve peak performance, and tweaking their scuba unit to achieve optimal trim. And, the majority are swimming in a slightly foot-down orientation - while they are finning, they maintain depth. When they stop, they begin to sink, so they add air to their BCD. Then when they start finning again, they start to ascend, so they dump air from the BCD. And the Dimension makes that so-o-o easy, that they never realize they have inherently poor trim, and poor buoyancy control, and they are using more air than they need to because they are using their fins for maintaining vertical position in the water column, not just horizontal position. I am not by any means suggesting that divers who use the Dimension are uniformly bad divers. Rather, I am suggesting that there are features of the unit which may undermine the process of a newer diver developing good buoyancy / trim.

I had an experience last weekend that relates to this situation. One of our shop Divemasters was taking our Self-Reliant Diver course. He came to the quarry outfitted in his Zeagle Ranger (another BCD that we too often sell to newer male divers - and I bought a Ranger as my first BCD, many years ago - just as we sell too many Zenas to newer female divers), and AL80. One of the requirements for the first SRD dive is to hover motionless (no finning or sculling) for 2 minutes. I made it clear to both student divers (the other student was a Divemaster candidate) that I expected them to hover horizontally. The DMC had no trouble doing that - he was wearing a Transpac (soft backplate) and a wing, with much of his weight contained in trim pockets placed high on his back. But, the DM could not stay horizontal without finning. He could hover motionless just fine, but it was always in a vertical position (not a good role model for the OW students he works with). After that dive, I told him he passed the performance requirement for the dive (but he didn't pass my performance requirement for what a shop DM should be able to do). And, I suggested that we do another dive, after we finished the course the next day (Sunday), and I would put him in a steel BP and see what that did for his trim. The difference was amazing - he was better trimmed while swimming, he could hover horizontally without difficulty, AND - he pointed this out - it was the first time he had ever been able to dive with no added weight. He was optimally weighted with just the SS backplate.

Equipment doesn't make the diver - a good diver can function with just about anything - a jacket BCD, a floaty back-inflate, a backplate, no BCD for that matter. But, proper, streamlined, minimalist equipment can make the diving much more efficient, much more fun, and can facilitate the newer diver's development of skills.

 

[2cold4california]

I use a Aqua Lung with the i3 feature and it works great. If you aren't good in the water and haven't operated a BCD much before then a Knighthawk w/SS1 or i3 device isn't for you. I like it, some don't.


I disagree about the assssment of "floaty" BCDs. The Knighthawk and Dimension are marginally buoyant with the back insert but without it they are almost as good as the ranger. I've never seen it be an issue, a tiny bit of extra lift doesn't hurt.


Weight integration is kind of par for the course for any modern BCD. OP I'm sure there are people who are gonna pitch you back plates for doubles and tech rigs (like the XTX200) but all that is unnecessary and sort of comical if you combine it with something like a BCD w/o integrated weights. Just buy what you need.