Shadow Divers – Exposed U 869

[divemaster_jim]

Doubtful, but maybe we can collect in the libel suit when Gentile and Tonka co-author "Scuba Board Exposed! The Shocking Mistruths Behind the Forums and the BP/W Zealots"

Methinks soap on a rope is gonna be on my x-mas list....

 

[seekercrew]

Please start by reading Exposed pgs 199 and 200 by Gary's own standard his book is best suited for use as a coaster. Hitting some high points,read the first part of my earlier post about static discharge. Now take into consideration this discharge is about 200,000 volts. Compare to 30k to 50k for an automotive spark plug or 200k to 700k for a taser and maybeee you cold imagine the arc from this sucker ( I bet those Huey's Gary was jumping in and out of had static straps {reference p 91}). "NON-FICTION MEANS FACT."

Page 167 true Nagle had obtained the U-boat numbers. By this time John was the organizational force behind the Seeker. John had organized the wreck exploration expeditions for this whole time period. Approximately '90 and on. John was listed as the trip contact not open boat or private charter. In the original "Wreck Dives of New Jersey" Gary published dozens of wreck "numbers" some verified some not. Lot's of "numbers" circulate different boats. Why is something wrong with John taking the intuitive to actually have people dive these sites. Being the kick in the collective arse to get things done is not worthy of any credit? "FACT MEANS REALITY"
On to page 343 the whole rickety dock scenario. I only remember one masochist that walked along carrying their tanks down the docks. Most normal people used the available carts. More importantly the bloody dock collapsed (in the early 90s) almost dropping divers carts and equipment in the stinking river! OOOPPS so much for the local ordnaces and heavy penalties.
Or page 347 with Gary's claim to THE bell. He kind of fails to mention John Moyer actually continued(s?) to search for the actual ship's bell not the stern bell.

The final condemnation of Gary and his book is his degrading comments about Bill Nagle. My place on the crew was gained by being a compatent diver and trying to steer Bill into alcohol treatment (you can lead a horse to water ) I can assure you Bill's end wasn't pretty but it also has no place in this story. It was really just meanspirited and sad Gary felt compelled to destroy a dead man's legacy. Fading or not he was a mentor of sorts to many divers after Gary was done with him. Even more troubleing was the swipes at "John's Vietnam" (read pgs 157,158,159) if this isn't attempted character assassination nothing is. It must be sheet because he never talked about it is "NOT FACT". A man I used to work with was a Sargent in Viet Nam He had a Silver Star hanging on his den wall. I've been told to own one indicates you've seen some serious sheet (especially if you're only a Sargent). He never talks about it.

"A WITNESS WHO HAS BEEN IMPEACHED LOSES HIS CREDIBILITY FOR ALL TIME."

This book doesn't bode well for GARY'S credibility. Sorry I couldn't offer direct impeachment of the juicer parts of his STORY but here is a small handful reasons this book smacks of plain old sour grapes. Whatever valid points might be found in this STORY are overshadowed by the condescending tone and inaccuracies also found within.

 

[jeffrey-c]

Methinks soap on a rope is gonna be on my x-mas list....

"This cute all-natural goldfish is the catch of the day! Each fish is 100% vegetable based soap with a great fragrance and at 210 grams larger than it looks!"

 

[divemaster_jim]

Please start by reading Exposed pgs 199 and 200 by Gary's own standard his book is best suited for use as a coaster. Hitting some high points,read the first part of my earlier post about static discharge. Now take into consideration this discharge is about 200,000 volts. Compare to 30k to 50k for an automotive spark plug or 200k to 700k for a taser and maybeee you cold imagine the arc from this sucker ( I bet those Huey's Gary was jumping in and out of had static straps {reference p 91}). "NON-FICTION MEANS FACT."

Page 167 true Nagle had obtained the U-boat numbers. By this time John was the organizational force behind the Seeker. John had organized the wreck exploration expeditions for this whole time period. Approximately '90 and on. John was listed as the trip contact not open boat or private charter. In the original "Wreck Dives of New Jersey" Gary published dozens of wreck "numbers" some verified some not. Lot's of "numbers" circulate different boats. Why is something wrong with John taking the intuitive to actually have people dive these sites. Being the kick in the collective arse to get things done is not worthy of any credit? "FACT MEANS REALITY"
On to page 343 the whole rickety dock scenario. I only remember one masochist that walked along carrying their tanks down the docks. Most normal people used the available carts. More importantly the bloody dock collapsed (in the early 90s) almost dropping divers carts and equipment in the stinking river! OOOPPS so much for the local ordnaces and heavy penalties.
Or page 347 with Gary's claim to THE bell. He kind of fails to mention John Moyer actually continued(s?) to search for the actual ship's bell not the stern bell.

The final condemnation of Gary and his book is his degrading comments about Bill Nagle. My place on the crew was gained by being a compatent diver and trying to steer Bill into alcohol treatment (you can lead a horse to water ) I can assure you Bill's end wasn't pretty but it also has no place in this story. It was really just meanspirited and sad Gary felt compelled to destroy a dead man's legacy. Fading or not he was a mentor of sorts to many divers after Gary was done with him. Even more troubleing was the swipes at "John's Vietnam" (read pgs 157,158,159) if this isn't attempted character assassination nothing is. It must be sheet because he never talked about it is "NOT FACT". A man I used to work with was a Sargent in Viet Nam He had a Silver Star hanging on his den wall. I've been told to own one indicates you've seen some serious sheet (especially if you're only a Sargent). He never talks about it.

"A WITNESS WHO HAS BEEN IMPEACHED LOSES HIS CREDIBILITY FOR ALL TIME."

This book doesn't bode well for GARY'S credibility. Sorry I couldn't offer direct impeachment of the juicer parts of his STORY but here is a small handful reasons this book smacks of plain old sour grapes. Whatever valid points might be found in this STORY are overshadowed by the condescending tone and inaccuracies also found within.

Not having the chance yet to read Garys' book, All I can comment on is Kursons' book
and that is I can't take his telling of events as seriously as I would like to, In other books I've read like The Last Dive some of the events conflict between the two, I could suppose it was because of different sources of information given to both of the authors, but when Kurson made it read like they were some sort of super diver it makes me kinda wonder. If in fact all events actually took place I'd be more than happy to eat my own words. I guess in my case I came away feeling it was more entertainment than fact. just my opinion, right or wrong...

 

[seekercrew]

Most of my references were to Gary's assertion about the absolute truth is the only truth bla bla bla. While he has lots of mistakes, misinformation, and plain old b s in his own version. Shadow Divers is a factual account of what happened. It has it's own point of view and style. Maybe Gary is right on some points. With that said a more informed person could easily find more wrong with Exposed. My main problem is the smear tone of this book. It absolutely leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Lots of his supporting information is flawed to say the least.

 

[H2Andy]

My main problem is the smear tone of this book. It absolutely leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Lots of his supporting information is flawed to say the least.

that was exqctly my reaction

whatever it is, it's bad form, and too bad coming from a diving giant like Gary

one just expects more

 

[tonka97]

Glad this thread continues to incite questions and interest!

Shadow Divers Exposed, p.197, Gary Gentile http://www.ggentile.com/sdexposed.html

"Shadow Divers gave credit to Chatterton for discovering the Ultra decrypts which identified the U-869, and which determined that it was proceeding to the precise location of its ultimate demise. Yet Mark McKellar actually unearthed this valuable information, and passed it along to Chatterton in a spirit of cooperation. In order to support its bogus contention, Shadow Divers did not even acknowledge McKellar's existence."

p.197
"In short, Nagle discovered the [U-869] wreck, McKellar furnished the identity, Lander conducted the bulk of the research, Moyers ascertained how the U-boat was sunk - and Chatterton and Kohler took the credit, then made a career out of reputations that were based upon a foundation that was either faked, filched, or fictitious."

 

[H2Andy]

Glad this thread continues to incite questions and interest!

Shadow Divers Exposed, p.197, Gary Gentile http://www.ggentile.com/sdexposed.html

"Shadow Divers gave credit to Chatterton for discovering the Ultra decrypts which identified the U-869, and which determined that it was proceeding to the precise location of its ultimate demise. Yet Mark McKellar actually unearthed this valuable information, and passed it along to Chatterton in a spirit of cooperation. In order to support its bogus contention, Shadow Divers did not even acknowledge McKellar's existence."

well ... the book does show Chatterton looking at the Ultra intercepts at the National Archives (pages 255-256)

if Chatterton already had the Ultra intercepts, why did he and Barb Lander go to the Archives to look? why the charade?

Or did you not read the part where it says "C and K ... had seen radio intercetps before, but had never dreamed to inspect those relating to U-869, a boat conclusively recorded by history as having been sunk off Gibraltar"

perhaps what was provided to them by McKellar is not as "solid" as what Gary wants to make it appear with 20/20 hindsight? i tell you this: Gary's general tone and lose use of other facts makes me doubt sincerely that his version of this issue is accurate.

and by the way, other than in Gentile's book, i can't find any trace of any publication where McKellar himself states any of this.

all we have is Gentile's hearsay assertions as to what McKellar might or might not have given C & K

p.197
"In short, Nagle discovered the [U-869] wreck, McKellar furnished the identity, Lander conducted the bulk of the research, Moyers ascertained how the U-boat was sunk - and Chatterton and Kohler took the credit, then made a career out of reputations that were based upon a foundation that was either faked, filched, or fictitious."

laughable. nobody knew it was the U-869 until C and K brought the tag up.

at best, they might have had an educated guess. is Gary now saying that they really didn't do that but are taking the credit anyway? is Gary saying that it was him who brought the tag up???

and again, Gary does himself a disservice with his pettiness ... "faked, filched, or fictitious"

the sad part is neither you nor him seem to understand why that is not acceptable

 

[tonka97]

p. 196 Shadow Divers Exposed, Gary Gentile:

"Shadow Divers gave credit to Chatterton for finding the body of Mark Ruggiero on the Texas Tower, when in fact Kevin England and John Moyer found the body". Just another example of falsification of the facts to create a 'hero' for the story.:11:

It appears that the entire fabric of Shadow Divers is suspect and interwoven with fabrications to make a 'good story' and to create two heroes. This is done with the conscious exclusion of MANY other divers and researchers who made more significant contributions.

It DID make a reasonably good story and is fit for the FICTION shelf.

I WOULD enjoy reading a non-fiction account of the discovery and identification of U-869, but it probably would only fill a couple of chapters in a larger tome dealing with U-boat wrecks off the Atlantic coastline.

We divers owe Gary Gentile a debt of appreciation for setting the record straight, and limiting the damage that Shadow Divers has perpetrated upon history and our sport.

 

[Wayward Son]

Once again:

What makes what Gentile wrote true?

It's a pretty simple question. Do you have an answer or are you simply accepting his book as gospel?