Jandee
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Women plus 64, not skinny, yes there is sexism. When they see me dive there is no longer a problem.
Sexism?
- Thread starter Jill Heinerth
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My other sport is one that is dominated by women (Dressage is probably 95% done by women riders). As a result, my choice of gear is significantly less than the choices offered to women -- from saddle design to boots to clothes -- even down to gloves.
I suppose that could be attributed to "sexism" but it is, of course, really a market place issue.
Question for women divers -- do you find a similar problem with gear choices appropriate for women regarding size, fit, etc. And if so, would you attribute that to sexism or "merely market forces?"
I suppose that could be attributed to "sexism" but it is, of course, really a market place issue.
Question for women divers -- do you find a similar problem with gear choices appropriate for women regarding size, fit, etc. And if so, would you attribute that to sexism or "merely market forces?"
clownfishsydney
Contributor
From a male point of view, I suspect that there is a lot of sexism in diving. I have certainly seen it and my wife has reported to me things that have happened to them when they have done their annual "girls" weekend (and this is what they call it themselves).
However, in our dive club I would be astounded if any of our female members (we have about 35% female membership I think with female president and majority committee members female) reported sexism when diving. We have females who do deep wreck dives, who organise dive trips, who drive member's boats and who pull up anchors.
There is certainly some male divers I have encountered (and still encounter) who are still living in the 1950s in terms of how they expect females to behave. I am happy to report that our dive club is not at all like this.
However, in our dive club I would be astounded if any of our female members (we have about 35% female membership I think with female president and majority committee members female) reported sexism when diving. We have females who do deep wreck dives, who organise dive trips, who drive member's boats and who pull up anchors.
There is certainly some male divers I have encountered (and still encounter) who are still living in the 1950s in terms of how they expect females to behave. I am happy to report that our dive club is not at all like this.
There is definitely a problem with gear for women..especially since women gear (especially Bcds..) are more expensive. Since there is in general less women diving, there is less market and therefore less made, and they are allowed to hike the price. Not fun for us...
On the opposite side though, I work in the industry and to be honest, use Aqualung's Wave (pool) and Aqualung's Axiom for ocean work in XS..both slightly big in the shoulder area but overall..doesn't change the way I dive or work.
Sexism...FORSURE..especially when it comes to work..
I will constantly be asked if I am okay because the tanks are heavy, or the anchor is heavy....I get male clients commenting when I bend over for the anchor, or when I have to lift the equipment because it's a MANs job..
But then I do it...and they silence themselves..
Whether it's a job or a sport... we will get comments..instead of being negative, we need to show those specific people that we are there for a reason and capable, and hopefully this will be enough, and usually it is.
On the few occasions, I have gotten a slap on the bum..or a comment..but I shut that down...and fast. No one wants an angry guide hahaha
On the opposite side though, I work in the industry and to be honest, use Aqualung's Wave (pool) and Aqualung's Axiom for ocean work in XS..both slightly big in the shoulder area but overall..doesn't change the way I dive or work.
Sexism...FORSURE..especially when it comes to work..
I will constantly be asked if I am okay because the tanks are heavy, or the anchor is heavy....I get male clients commenting when I bend over for the anchor, or when I have to lift the equipment because it's a MANs job..
But then I do it...and they silence themselves..
Whether it's a job or a sport... we will get comments..instead of being negative, we need to show those specific people that we are there for a reason and capable, and hopefully this will be enough, and usually it is.
On the few occasions, I have gotten a slap on the bum..or a comment..but I shut that down...and fast. No one wants an angry guide hahaha
SeahorseDeb
Contributor
Hi Jill,
I started diving in 1976, and am still an active cold water drysuit-steel 100's diver. I decided not to read the other posts to this topic before I posted my own response as I wanted to be sure I didn't allow my view to be changed by what I read in other posts.
Of course the Internet didn't exist, and I didn't belong to a club, so I dove with the gentlemen in my class. I went out of my local area diving with them, the farthest location away was about 150 miles. These men were gentlemen in the truest sense of the word. I didn't ever feel that there was sexist attitude, however that would change. These men were looking after my well being and were genuine good friends and people to be with. I recall on one trip, we needed to overnight in a hotel room and they even factored the cost of my solo room into the cost of theirs, so we essentially rented two rooms for six people and I paid 1/6 of the cost. I remember them carrying my aluminum tanks, which weighed about half of my weight. I was raised by a military father, who instilled values into myself and my brother, so to me, this was normal male behavior. It was unilateral respect and friendship.
A year later I decided to get the dream job...work for a scuba shop and incorporate that passion with a paycheck. Things ground to a halt. I didn't see many women come in to the shop. The men who came in werent accepting of my help when it came to rentals or gear sales. I felt very slighted. I was pushed aside and the male employees offered their assistance and I guess I was supposed to retreat and fill tanks. I took a few remarks from the other male employees at the shop that were admittedly "sexist," and rather than stand up for myself, I quit after two months. I didn't dive with the shop employees...they harassed me too much. I didn't really feel accepted as a female diver, I saw it as a sport for men, women just weren't a presence at that time. My wetsuit was a custom, the product on the shelf didnt include a selection designed for women!
Today, as I reflect back on this behavior, I see some things remain the same and some have changed! I dive with more men than women in my area, which is mostly cold water lakes and rivers. When I can get to salt water, albeit cold water, there are more women. The men I dive with are courteous and respectful and always willing to lend a hand. Only one dive buddy out of many said something inappropriate and that person is no longer my buddy, there is an ample amount of gentlemen out there, so I don't have to settle for one who isn't a gentleman! I volunteer in a dive shop when I can (I work full time in a bank), and enjoy the banter of the male and female employees, it's a fun environment! Women are pushing the record books (you're one of the pioneers!!), noted for their passion for every aspect of scuba that men exhibit! I'm proud to see the enthusiasm for our sport cross over multi generations too!!
Debbie in WA State
I started diving in 1976, and am still an active cold water drysuit-steel 100's diver. I decided not to read the other posts to this topic before I posted my own response as I wanted to be sure I didn't allow my view to be changed by what I read in other posts.
Of course the Internet didn't exist, and I didn't belong to a club, so I dove with the gentlemen in my class. I went out of my local area diving with them, the farthest location away was about 150 miles. These men were gentlemen in the truest sense of the word. I didn't ever feel that there was sexist attitude, however that would change. These men were looking after my well being and were genuine good friends and people to be with. I recall on one trip, we needed to overnight in a hotel room and they even factored the cost of my solo room into the cost of theirs, so we essentially rented two rooms for six people and I paid 1/6 of the cost. I remember them carrying my aluminum tanks, which weighed about half of my weight. I was raised by a military father, who instilled values into myself and my brother, so to me, this was normal male behavior. It was unilateral respect and friendship.
A year later I decided to get the dream job...work for a scuba shop and incorporate that passion with a paycheck. Things ground to a halt. I didn't see many women come in to the shop. The men who came in werent accepting of my help when it came to rentals or gear sales. I felt very slighted. I was pushed aside and the male employees offered their assistance and I guess I was supposed to retreat and fill tanks. I took a few remarks from the other male employees at the shop that were admittedly "sexist," and rather than stand up for myself, I quit after two months. I didn't dive with the shop employees...they harassed me too much. I didn't really feel accepted as a female diver, I saw it as a sport for men, women just weren't a presence at that time. My wetsuit was a custom, the product on the shelf didnt include a selection designed for women!
Today, as I reflect back on this behavior, I see some things remain the same and some have changed! I dive with more men than women in my area, which is mostly cold water lakes and rivers. When I can get to salt water, albeit cold water, there are more women. The men I dive with are courteous and respectful and always willing to lend a hand. Only one dive buddy out of many said something inappropriate and that person is no longer my buddy, there is an ample amount of gentlemen out there, so I don't have to settle for one who isn't a gentleman! I volunteer in a dive shop when I can (I work full time in a bank), and enjoy the banter of the male and female employees, it's a fun environment! Women are pushing the record books (you're one of the pioneers!!), noted for their passion for every aspect of scuba that men exhibit! I'm proud to see the enthusiasm for our sport cross over multi generations too!!
Debbie in WA State
scuba_shark_fart
Registered
As a female (tech) diver, the only time I've had to think twice about some of these issues is when my boyfriend and I got into a shop where people don't know us. Before conversations begin, it's automatically assumed he's a diver and far more often than not, I'm asked when I want to take lessons.
I happen to be petite as well, so most of these men are amazed that I handle my own tanks as well.
It's not a big deal in my head. What's worse are the ladies who play into the feeble lady diver role.
I happen to be petite as well, so most of these men are amazed that I handle my own tanks as well.
It's not a big deal in my head. What's worse are the ladies who play into the feeble lady diver role.
Wingy
Contributor
Guilty. Id never given it that much thought until your post....I see a man doing dressage and I instantly think they must be gay...I apologise to all male dressage riders. I have had racehorses and have had a (male) trainer who competed in showjumping at an Olympic level - but for some reason, dressage = effeminate. I plead guilty and will try to refrain from ever thinking of another male dressage rider as gay even if they are, that is not the defining quality, the human being is. And you are right, riding apparel standards are geared to days of long ago so your choice of riding gear is governed by whats available - still looks cool on the ladies, not so cool on the guys.
There is only one item of gear choice I have a ''gender issue'' with - wrist dive computers - please someone make one that fits a womans wrist!! - its not that hard, long and slender! and NOT pink!
So yep, goes both ways and again, I apologise to the male dressage riders who Ive judged without thought.
Tigerman
Contributor
And this is why I have a problem with "sexism" in the first place, as well as "gender equality"...
Why is it worse to discriminate a woman because of her gender than it is a man?
Why is "important to the promotion of equality" to hire a woman over a man, if they have the same qualifications, or the woman have less, but has to be hired to "meet a quota" while at the same time it would be all kinds of hell if you preferred the man with same or lower qualifications?
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Because too many so-called "feminists" confuse gender equality with old-fashioned 1970s women's lib
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Sexism is so 1970's. Take my girlfriend's occupation of ice skating as an example. My girlfriend, Sonya, is a professional figure skating coach. Her sister is a professional hockey coach. The girl hockey players look down on the figure skaters for being girly girls. The figure skaters don't think the hockey players have any estrogen or any edge quality in their skating.
Meanwhile, the hockey guys think both sets of girls are pretty cool and respect them. Some guys want a girl they can slap the puck around with and other guys like girls who are more graceful and lady-like. Few, if any, men today would deny a girl the opportunity to play hockey. In the 1950's, most men probably wouldn't want girls playing hockey.
Now, how many guys want to play a real hockey game with girls? That number would be fewer. Not because girls can't play. Lots of guys can name girls who are better at hockey than they are, but sometimes it's just nice to be in a group of guys taking on another group of guys. Poker nights. Ladies night out. Those are examples of the bonding the sexes sometimes need with each other. The political correctness in school and at work can be tiresome. A "safe" (to use the beta word) place where guys can be guys and girls can be girls and take a vacation from the real world into the "unreal world" of sport and play can be refreshing.
But, many kids today would also love to play in a co-ed league. A college in Virginia is closing down because single-sex universities aren't getting the attendance they once did. I attended Marywood University which had been an all-women's Catholic college and taught scuba there as well as at the University of Scranton which had once been all-men's school. Time will see less and less division of sports, the military, etc.
Today, young people are all about equality like never before in our history. I think the future of any "ism" will come down to alphas vs. betas. Alphas take responsibility and control of their lives. Betas make excuses. Sexism is an old-fashioned excuse TODAY for a beta to blame something other than herself or himself.
Other factors come into play for a lot of the gender inequality activism. For instance, it's said that men negotiate salary more than women and they may decide not to take a promotion because it might mean less time with their kids. My sister is a perfect example. Not only did she not negotiate her salary working for a major healthcare provider in management, but she turned down a huge promotion because of travel and time away from her kids. The last time I had a salary, I negotiated for higher starting pay and raises until I was capped after a 41% pay increase over 5 years.
There are women who are fierce negotiators and probably wouldn't have settled for my salary cap. An ex-girlfriend who was a flight attendant for Continental was very demanding of hotel staff, wait staff, and got what she wanted. Another ex-girlfriend who was a flight attendant for Southwest left the airline and negotiated her way into a human resources generalist position with a liberal arts degree.
Some women, like Jill, Becky Kagan Schott, Cristina Zenato, and Dr. Sylvia Earle become world-renowned explorers after they start diving. Others are not so driven. Determination, drive, desire, passion, taking responsibility, working toward a goal, not giving up in hard times ... these traits aren't gender-specific. We are surrounded by Unsinkable Molly Brown's - women who can meet tough challenges. But, we are also surrounded by women who need more help facing challenges. The same holds true for men today. Many men are alpha males, but others are betas, and even the new omega men who do their best work on a video game. Women tend to hate omega men more than alpha men.
The question is how do we get the omega men off the couch?
Meanwhile, the hockey guys think both sets of girls are pretty cool and respect them. Some guys want a girl they can slap the puck around with and other guys like girls who are more graceful and lady-like. Few, if any, men today would deny a girl the opportunity to play hockey. In the 1950's, most men probably wouldn't want girls playing hockey.
Now, how many guys want to play a real hockey game with girls? That number would be fewer. Not because girls can't play. Lots of guys can name girls who are better at hockey than they are, but sometimes it's just nice to be in a group of guys taking on another group of guys. Poker nights. Ladies night out. Those are examples of the bonding the sexes sometimes need with each other. The political correctness in school and at work can be tiresome. A "safe" (to use the beta word) place where guys can be guys and girls can be girls and take a vacation from the real world into the "unreal world" of sport and play can be refreshing.
But, many kids today would also love to play in a co-ed league. A college in Virginia is closing down because single-sex universities aren't getting the attendance they once did. I attended Marywood University which had been an all-women's Catholic college and taught scuba there as well as at the University of Scranton which had once been all-men's school. Time will see less and less division of sports, the military, etc.
Today, young people are all about equality like never before in our history. I think the future of any "ism" will come down to alphas vs. betas. Alphas take responsibility and control of their lives. Betas make excuses. Sexism is an old-fashioned excuse TODAY for a beta to blame something other than herself or himself.
Other factors come into play for a lot of the gender inequality activism. For instance, it's said that men negotiate salary more than women and they may decide not to take a promotion because it might mean less time with their kids. My sister is a perfect example. Not only did she not negotiate her salary working for a major healthcare provider in management, but she turned down a huge promotion because of travel and time away from her kids. The last time I had a salary, I negotiated for higher starting pay and raises until I was capped after a 41% pay increase over 5 years.
There are women who are fierce negotiators and probably wouldn't have settled for my salary cap. An ex-girlfriend who was a flight attendant for Continental was very demanding of hotel staff, wait staff, and got what she wanted. Another ex-girlfriend who was a flight attendant for Southwest left the airline and negotiated her way into a human resources generalist position with a liberal arts degree.
Some women, like Jill, Becky Kagan Schott, Cristina Zenato, and Dr. Sylvia Earle become world-renowned explorers after they start diving. Others are not so driven. Determination, drive, desire, passion, taking responsibility, working toward a goal, not giving up in hard times ... these traits aren't gender-specific. We are surrounded by Unsinkable Molly Brown's - women who can meet tough challenges. But, we are also surrounded by women who need more help facing challenges. The same holds true for men today. Many men are alpha males, but others are betas, and even the new omega men who do their best work on a video game. Women tend to hate omega men more than alpha men.
The question is how do we get the omega men off the couch?
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