Seattle Diver Death

[Jcsgt]

Lamont, thanks for your posts. This is exactly why I joined SB, to learn, especially something that may save my life or that of someone else. I'll be having my buddy read this thread, also.

BTW, sounds like you did a hell of a job with what you did.

 

[lamont]

When I said "short" I was thinking really short...say 20 ft.

hmmm.... well, at some point you're probably going to be able to push them to the destination as part of whatever you're doing to strip their gear off almost... its also a little less critical to optimize if you've only got 20 ft to cover...

What about warm water where the diver might not be wearing any buoyant exposure protection. Some people aren't very floaty. Might there not be cases where you need their BC?

mmm.... yeah. if i'm diving in a t-shirt and shorts you should keep my BC on me... i barely can keep my mouth out of the water holding a full inhale and if i exhale i sink like a rock... around here its all 7mm wetsuits and drysuits with at least 200g thinsulate material... warmer climates you would probably have to watch out for this, good point...

theoretically the person might have drysuit flood as well, and less hydrophobic materials are going to pick up that water, lose their contained air and lose their buoyancy.... that's fairly edge case though...

 

[TSandM]

When I took Rescue, we talked at length about the recommendations for rescuing the unconscious diver who is not breathing. I disagreed with the teaching for these reasons, which I think I've written somewhere here before:

Breathing is a function programmed deep in the brainstem. Absence of a drive to breathe (apnea) is considered evidence of brain death. The acute victim who is not TRYING to breathe may have an obstructed airway, or may be making breathing efforts which are so feeble you can't detect them -- Thus the utility of the two rescue breaths. If the victim has no cough or choke reflex with the rescue breaths, and makes no effort to breathe thereafter, then most likely, there is little or no circulation to the brain. At that point, ventilating the patient is of little utility, and the goal should be the restoration of circulation. Therefore, I would cease efforts at rescue breathing in favor of the fastest possible transit to a stable surface, which it sounds like was done in this case.

This is my opinion as an ER doc. It is not the formal teaching. It's what I would do if I were, God help me, faced with the situation Lamont was handling.

One comment about removing gear -- in the book Diver Down, there is a blood-chilling account of a diver who became paralyzed as a result of DCS, but was awake to realize that the person towing him was towing his face underwater. You need to be VERY sure you can keep the airway open and clear of water if you remove the flotation device. Despite the drag, in a situation where someone was truly OOA and you couldn't inflate the drysuit, I'd be tempted to keep the BC on and orally inflate it as a safety measure. Of course, I haven't felt the drag, except in Rescue class, where the two was fairly short.

 

[BDub]

One comment about removing gear -- in the book Diver Down, there is a blood-chilling account of a diver who became paralyzed as a result of DCS, but was awake to realize that the person towing him was towing his face underwater. You need to be VERY sure you can keep the airway open and clear of water if you remove the flotation device. Despite the drag, in a situation where someone was truly OOA and you couldn't inflate the drysuit, I'd be tempted to keep the BC on and orally inflate it as a safety measure. Of course, I haven't felt the drag, except in Rescue class, where the two was fairly short.

I kind of had the decision not to remove the gear made for me. When I was first arrived to the victim, a couple of do-gooders had grabbed an aluminum skiff they rent at the crab shop. They motored out to provide assistance, but the had maneuvered the boat very close to the victim and I remember the motor/prop being much closer to me than I wanted it. The guys in the boat attempted to lift the victim on the boat, which was not going to happen with her gear on, and Jeanna told them to let her go. At this point I was getting extremely stressed from the boat and just wanted to get away from it before we had another victim, as did Jeanna. Jeanna actually yelled out "get her to the dock". At this point, I grabbed her heels to push, and about the same time, Lamont and Geoff were able to engage the scooters. The guys in the boat moved to the side at this point.

In speaking with Lamont, we're wondering if the guys in the boat were trying to pull her aboard the same time they were trying to engage the scooters, which may have made it appear that the scooters were having difficulty.

 

[midnite135]

I want to say thank you for those involved in the rescue efforts for doing everything they could.

I also have been reading through here, and as unfortunate as the incident is I did not notice what actually killed the diver? If she was buddy breathing and concious until 10 feet it doesnt sound like they made a rapid ascent?

Do we know how she ran out of air?

 

[Cacia]

Tsands,
Valuable input, I have worried about the removal of the only remaining flotation on an unconscious victim.
I realize that is not what lamont was saying....but a point needing to be made IMV.

I have a question...would a person experiencing the increased pulmonary pressure of gas expanding cause a sensation of pain? I ask this because sometimes I find myself skip breathing or even holding my breath when trying to focus my camera.

The recent accident discussions actually made me aware of this...just because it isn't accidental, doesn't make it any less dangerous.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I kind of had the decision not to remove the gear made for me. When I was first arrived to the victim, a couple of do-gooders had grabbed an aluminum skiff they rent at the crab shop. They motored out to provide assistance, but the had maneuvered the boat very close to the victim and I remember the motor/prop being much closer to me than I wanted it. The guys in the boat attempted to lift the victim on the boat, which was not going to happen with her gear on, and Jeanna told them to let her go. At this point I was getting extremely stressed from the boat and just wanted to get away from it before we had another victim, as did Jeanna. Jeanna actually yelled out "get her to the dock". At this point, I grabbed her heels to push, and about the same time, Lamont and Geoff were able to engage the scooters. The guys in the boat moved to the side at this point.

In speaking with Lamont, we're wondering if the guys in the boat were trying to pull her aboard the same time they were trying to engage the scooters, which may have made it appear that the scooters were having difficulty.

It's imperative to take control and "manage" the rescue whenever non-divers are involved. I recall one incident at Edmonds Underwater Park where the people dispatched on the skiff from the ferry attempted to remove a diver's BCD without first removing her weights. Another diver stopped them in time ... but had that diver arrived a few second later, chances are very good that they would have sent the person they were trying to rescue to the bottom without an air supply ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lamont]

I kind of had the decision not to remove the gear made for me. When I was first arrived to the victim, a couple of do-gooders had grabbed an aluminum skiff they rent at the crab shop. They motored out to provide assistance, but the had maneuvered the boat very close to the victim and I remember the motor/prop being much closer to me than I wanted it. The guys in the boat attempted to lift the victim on the boat, which was not going to happen with her gear on, and Jeanna told them to let her go. At this point I was getting extremely stressed from the boat and just wanted to get away from it before we had another victim, as did Jeanna. Jeanna actually yelled out "get her to the dock". At this point, I grabbed her heels to push, and about the same time, Lamont and Geoff were able to engage the scooters. The guys in the boat moved to the side at this point.

In speaking with Lamont, we're wondering if the guys in the boat were trying to pull her aboard the same time they were trying to engage the scooters, which may have made it appear that the scooters were having difficulty.

Yeah, there's an aside here about perceptions during a rescue attempt which could be made. I noticed the skiff out of the corner of my eye and 'bad option' sort of flashed into my head and I the boat was pushed completely out of my awareness. Later that night I recalled a red boat being there, and for awhile though it must have been the coast guard boat and then started wondering why we made for the dock with the coast guard boat there, then I finally remembered it was just that aluminum skiff with the reddish trim on it. That boat was way outside of my perceptual tunnel basically the entire time. Which makes it entirely possible that I was starting to tow at the same time as they were trying to get her on board, I couldn't tell you -- at that point I also had my head underwater when I wasn't checking for direction to the dock...

 

[apeks74]

Nice thread guys. It sounds that you did the very best you could!

Dealing with people dieing in front of you has a very strong impact emotionally and physically. Not to sound sexist, but my inner hairy DNA really has a difficult time dealing with Women and Children in these circumstances. Talk about it , share your experiences and make this tragedy a lesson learned for others. Thank you for being willing to discuss your experience with us.

Good Job!

 

[Firefyter]

Dealing with people dieing in front of you has a very strong impact emotionally and physically. Not to sound sexist, but my inner hairy DNA really has a difficult time dealing with Women and Children in these circumstances. Talk about it , share your experiences and make this tragedy a lesson learned for others. Thank you for being willing to discuss your experience with us.

Good Job!

This is a very good point that needed to be made. In my 20+ years as a firefighter, I have seen lots of victims die in different types of incidents. It's never easy to deal with, and I've had several sleepless nights wondering what I could have done differently to change the outcome. There are some that still haunt me, but with proper management, you learn to deal with it.

The key to learning how to deal with it is what we call CISM, or Critical Incident Stress Management. It's a series of debriefings with professional, non-judgemental participants that have been where you are, and they allow you to vent and discuss the incident in a confidential setting. This is an invaluable tool when it comes to the mental health of participants. Most emergency services either have a team in place, or have one at their disposal ready to be put into place.

Please contact someone in your community to see if this can be made available to you, I guarantee that it does worlds of good and helps keep things in perspective for you, the rescuer.

Also, please remember that without you guys there, this person had NO chance at survival. You did your best and made a valliant effort to help someone you didn't even know. I applaud you for this, and I know in my heart that the world would be a better place if we had more people like you in it. Too many people would stand by and gawk where you chose to take action, and you should feel good about your efforts.

God Bless you all.