Scubapro online sales

[scubapro50]

True LeisurePro does sell alot of "Gray Market" equipment and it is very hard for the scuba companies to track their merchandise. On another thread "Zeagle help needed" a diver was having problems with a Zeagle BC purchased from LeisurePro and Scott Zeagle did offer help with fixing the problem. When Scott was asked if he could track down the source doing the selling to LeisiurePro he said it would take too much time and effort to do this.

 

[Hoosier]

Scubapro has had the free parts thing since long before there was an internet and for at least the last 20 years that I have been diivng and buying SP regs. It's a good thing for all involved, and I don't see the point in using it to take pot shots at them.

SP is also one of only 2 or 3 companies that actually support their regulators for decades - including over 90% of their long since discontinued models. Personally, I'd hate to lose that or lose the wide spread local dealer network they have established just to save a few bucks on the occasional internet purchase. Supporting your local dive shop with an extra $100 or so per regulator is well worth the money in the long run, if you plan to stay in this sport.

I respect your career as a ScubaPro technician and I know you have a willingness to have your own LDS in the future. The current market trend isn’t different story with what you are thinking about in the perspective of normal customers. No matter when SP launched the “Free part” promotion, it is obvious fact that SP has tried to secure and protect US market compared to EU market. They have already known how EU market has been going. It is still almost half price to get the exact same regulation from Diveinn. Otherwise, why do you think SP offers that promotion, particularly only in North America. Do you know that MK25/S600 cost about $1000 in some Asian market without having any free part promotion? Before having internet, it was also possible option to get any scuba equipment from EU. You don’t think there was no market or sellers for this. For example, I could buy any SONY merchandizes that was only made in Japan, not made in Mexico in US before having internet. Yes, there was a market only for the made-in-Japan products. If you had been to any competitive market in
other US states, such as NY or CA, it isn’t a secret you can get SP product
at LP or similar price with a full free part and warranty. Of course, “Money Talks
over there” Sure, it is a totally different story in the monopoly market such as any mid-west states where I am. But, who is leading the market and who is selling more SP product between the LDS from competitive market and LDS from monopoly market?

You mentioned about the willingness to pay (WTP). Everyone has a totally
different WTP. I am not sure how many divers have the same WTP like you
have. If I have to pay $100 more per regulator to stay in this sport, I had
better buy other brand to keep enjoying. Don’t worry that this sport is never disappeared. “The show must go on” There are always other persons or parties who want to get into this business as long as the money flows.

Al Mialkovsky,

I have seen your flames so many times about this subject. I understand your position as a LDS or instructor in the small monopoly market, but all things is the fact that is being happened in the scuba industry. As long as SP doesn’t change their policy, the gray market is never gone. If it is an easy task to get rid of gray market, we have already solved the drug problem over the world. I can promise we will see more gray market products not even from EU and LP, but from Asia, particularly from China in the future.
So, there is no reason to blame the customers who want to get the better price and service without being threaten by some stupid LDS owners.


As for Scubatoys, I have already thrown a few grand dollars to Larry at Scubatoys from the Mid-west. What I want from him is nothing more or less than better price and service. Even, I scheduled my flight route to transit the connection at Dallas airport instead of Chicago this holiday. Yes, I plan to drop by his store to spend more money (Larry, I still need a direction how to get to your store from the airport). I was also told that Larry has many customers like me. If any LDS owners read this thread, have you ever had this kind of customers in your shop?

 

[scubatoys]

I also agree with both Scott and Michael. I also agree with Larry even though he cares less about what we say. The bottom line is he is succesful due to is knowledge, honesty and customer service. He is also smart in that he trys to build good relations with his suppliers. By doing so it helps him in supporting his customers.

Phil

Thanks Phil... Actually I do care what you guys say. You, Scott, Michael, and a hand full of others that don't participate out on the board here... Your open and honest way of doing business is refreshing... It's nice to talk to someone who will give an answer and not bury you in psychobabble business speak: "Well the gray market is an issue that we are attempting to address by developing a multi faceted strategy that will consider the aspects of the .... blah, blah..."

And hoosier... you said if taking out the gray market was easy, we would have solved the world drug problem.... Hate to say it, but the gray market is a lot easier to take out. With drugs, you can have them manufactured anywhere, and there is no way to trace them. But with scuba gear, you can follow a reg that is make in it's factory, it gets a serial number as soon as it is born... It is a simple task to buy it from a non-authorized dealer, see who you originally sold it to, and terminate that dealer... end of story. Look at Aeris or Atomic on LP.

And Al, really, your anger toward me is misdirected. I assume you work at or own a shop, and they sell SP products... So lets take a reg that retails for $500. According to SP policy, you should advertise and sell it for $450. Would it hurt your sales to have Scubatoys and a lot of other legit dealers showing that reg for $450 on our sites, while you would have a decent profit margin being able to match our price, plus tell the customer you'd toss in a discount on their next class, or a free air fill.

That would make your SP sales much better... but instead, you have gray market sales, both domestically and abroad, that because they are buying better that your shop, and don't care about maintaining as large a margin... they'll sell it for $325.

How many times have you seen on this board, "If my lds can be withing 10-15% of the net I'll buy from them... but if it's hundreds...."

Do you not realize that if a company has products on gray market sites, it is not that they can't stop it.... Ask any of the major manufacturers that participate here... it is easy to stop any serial numbered product... if you choose to... and don't mind giving up the large sales.

I choose to support the companies that support fair trade... and don't funnel goods to gray market sources while claiming they don't - or just turn a blind eye to the order of all this product to a particular store.. that could never sell that much from their location. If they have a MAP policy, they make everyone play the same game... that's all I ask. Al, if you want to support companies that have a different agenda, don't get upset when sales go to gray market shops. And if we are competing on even pricing ground - and your customer buys from me... then you don't have to wonder about your pricing, you have to wonder about your knowledge of the product and your customer service.

 

[dirthead]

As for Scubatoys, I have already thrown a few grand dollars to Larry at Scubatoys from the Mid-west. What I want from him is nothing more or less than better price and service. Even, I scheduled my flight route to transit the connection at Dallas airport instead of Chicago this holiday. Yes, I plan to drop by his store to spend more money (Larry, I still need a direction how to get to your store from the airport).

Hoosier,

I did the same thing about a month ago. Here are directions from DFW to Scubatoys.

Take North exit from DFW and follow SR 121 to I-635 East. Go East on I-635 to I-35. Go North on I-35 and take the Crosby exit. Scubatoys will be on your right. Seems like it took about 15 minutes to get from DFW to Scubatoys with light traffic.

 

[scubatoys]

Hoosier,

I did the same thing about a month ago. Here are directions from DFW to Scubatoys.

Take North exit from DFW and follow SR 121 to I-635 East. Go East on I-635 to I-35. Go North on I-35 and take the Crosby exit. Scubatoys will be on your right. Seems like it took about 15 minutes to get from DFW to Scubatoys with light traffic.

Are you going to have a rental car.. or cabbing it? Tell you what... Anyone who needs to cab it over... call me as soon as your wheels touch, and I'll send someone out to the airport to get you. Now don't plan on the suit, stretch limo, and the little cardboard sign with your name on it... but if a pickup truck with a couple tanks rolling around the bed, and an assortment of McDonalds and Wendy's bags and spilled french fries works... We'll come get ya'.

 

[jsmharley]

Are you going to have a rental car.. or cabbing it? Tell you what... Anyone who needs to cab it over... call me as soon as your wheels touch, and I'll send someone out to the airport to get you. Now don't plan on the suit, stretch limo, and the little cardboard sign with your name on it... but if a pickup truck with a couple tanks rolling around the bed, and an assortment of McDonalds and Wendy's bags and spilled french fries works... We'll come get ya'.

How I wish I had known this in October. I had a 4 hour layover in DFW on my way home to Virginia Beach from Tulsa. You better believe I'll be visiting you the next time I am in the area Larry. As a new diver it is very awesome to see a LDS owner stand up for his morals. If only more would do it, then we all could afford that sweet dive vacation every year.....

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

So, there is no reason to blame the customers who want to get the better price and service without being threaten by some stupid LDS owners

Threatened? You know dive shops that threaten customers? The shop I instruct for has been around much longer than the internet dive shops. I think they have good reason to be proud of the service they offer and after all, many times the real bottom line is more than the price isn't it?

I've seen many many of our customers get screwed by online shops.

And Al, really, your anger toward me is misdirected.

I'm not in the least angry with you Larry. The only time I feel I've been even a little bit angry in regards to the net is those divers who come in, and there aren't very many, try things on and then buy from the net. Some have wasted a lot of our time at the shop but we expect that.

In regards to the net in all honesty in many ways it's helped us as so many times that gray market discount blows up in the divers face and they'll come into our shop with firm resolve to never again shop online.

The shop I instruct for has survived and in the past year more than doubled it's sales while never selling more than 10% off msrp. We do offer services that online sellers can never offer and we do point that out. There are other shops in the area that carried "fair market" items and tried to compete with you online guys and they're gone, outta business.

So thanks all my internet business advisors for your business advice but we aren't interested in pushing your fair market items That would put us in a race to the bottom and that's just stupid.

Oh and boxing up a complete dive package and returning it to Leisurepro recently so a customer could purchase from us did put a smile on my face

Larry we do have a customer who has purchased items from you and he likes you a lot. He thinks you're a fair guy and great about your return policies.

We didn't try to match online tank prices and he recently purchased a couple of steel tanks from us which is nice, helps pay the rent and even helps keep in business the only dive shop in the area so he'll be able to get those tanks filled for years to come, as long as we stay open

 

[redacted]

But with scuba gear, you can follow a reg that is make in it's factory, it gets a serial number as soon as it is born... It is a simple task to buy it from a non-authorized dealer, see who you originally sold it to, and terminate that dealer... end of story. Look at Aeris or Atomic on LP.

I really believe if it were easy, Scubapro and Aqua Lung would have shut them down. But I suspect that the laws in some countries would not allow a mfgr to dictate to dealers how, to whom and for how much they can sell the goods they have purchased. And that protection probably leaves the Mfgr with some legal liability if the mfgr terminates their agreement without due cause.

While Scubapro may have fired one of it primary European distributors, the shops are not SP employees (same as US) and may not be so easily delt with (unlike the US LDS). It appeared to me that episode actually caused an intertuption in SP regs at Leisurepro. Obviously they must have rather diverse sources of supply as LP seems to be back in the SP business.

As much as SP might like to protect its US LDSs, they also don't want to lose major European markets and perhaps be subject to fiscal liability to boot.

But there are solutions and you have found one of them.

Just for grins, I was looking at the European dealers for Atomic and Aeris. They are pretty short lists.

 

[PerroneFord]

Ok,

Maybe Larry, or someone else can explain something to me. Because I am genuinely not getting something here.

1. SP manufactures a regulator with a serial number
2. A retail outlet places an order with SP for regulators and that one gets sent out.
3. SP recieves money for said regulator(s), and their cost is covered with due profit.
4. Retailer then sells said regulator for $10 without advertising that price.

From this perspective, SP has not lost a dime. Only the retailer has lost money. What is the incentive for ScubaPro to cut this retailer off? Financially, he has satisfied his obligation to SP.

It appears that other retailers would be very upset because they would have a very hard time selling their SP regulators while someone else sells them far cheaper. So retailers ask the company to set minimum pricing to "protect" them from free market economics. SP agrees and then charges authorized shops $10k for this "service".

So Scenario 1-3 are repeated. but this time, an unauthorized dealer has gotten the regulators. Again SP has their money for the product, but this time, has not collected $10k for the licensing fee. Unauthorized retailer sells the regulator for the MAP price which still grossly undercuts authorized dealers. So now there are two squabbles. SP has just lost $10k, and the authorized retailers are being undercut. From SP's perspective, they seemingly have to weigh whether it's worth tracking down these folks and cutting them off because they didn't get $10k from them, or if they allow it to happen because they are getting $100k in orders. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how that is gonna go. So the retailers complain that they have paid to NOT be subjected to free market, and yet still are because grey market sales are still happening.

One way or the other, SP is making their money. That good doesn't leave their warehouse unlesss they recieve payment. And it's the retailers who are left to bear the brunt. The customer just wants a regulator. Maybe one with a SP name on it. Many wonder why it has to cost 20% more than other similar regulators. Some, like me, don't really give a flip who's name is on it if it works well. Others pay the premium. And still others want the name at a bargain price so they find LP, or DiveINN, or others.

This all seems predicated on 1 fundamental thing. SP dealers want SP to protect them from the free market. This artificial barrier seems to be the crux of all that is wrong. Thousands of companies deal every day in goods and services with free market. Why can't retailers and SP/AL live under these conditions? Why the price controls? How does this help the customer, and frankly, how does it help the company?

Again, I am not bashing anyone here. I, as Joe consumer, am trying to understand the dynamics in play.

 

[paulwall]

Well I wonder if scubatoys can manage to get that smartcom battery changed when it takes a dump in a couple of years? That would be an expensive screwup if they couldn't.

Who the hell talks a student into buying a computer that has to be sent back to the factory to have a battery changed? OH, right. The LDS.

Anyway, I've met Larry and his staff. I even took a class with him (now that was an experience!). I'd trust him to get the job done before 75% of any of the LDS's I've encountered. If push came to shove, I'd send it back to the manufacturer, or sell it on ebay (One Smartcom - hardly used, needs battery).