Scubapro online sales

[garyfotodiver]

I guess the only way any of us can answer this question about warranty is purchase a ScubaPro product at ScubaToys and send in all the required paperwork ... then take it to a current ScubaPro dealer and see if they will perform work under warranty ....

Great idea! Please keep us all apprised of your purchase and dealings with the SP hierarchy.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

There are some good points being made. I think though that we need to separate a warranty issue from a liability/recall issue. Obviously when SP had a safety/reliability problem with the Uwatec computers they had sold, they needed to recall and fix them regardless of where people bought them. To do otherwise would get them sued in a heartbeat as we are talking about a consumer safety issue not a consumer monetary loss.

On the other hand warranty and battery replacement issues are going to be an entirely different story. The free battery replacement you get on the covered Uwatec computer bought from an authorized Scubapro dealer, is going to offset the higher costs you paid to get it from a dealer. Of course that is by design and I won't get into the actual versus charged cost for the replacement, the inadvisability of ever buying a computer without a user changeable battery or the motives behind the Uwatec approach.

But given the cost of a Smart Com and the greater savings that can be had on-line I think 30% on-line sales is pretty realistic and accurate for that particular product... but probably not for SP products and sales as a whole. With regard to regulators, I have noticed that the margin increases with the cost of the regulator and the high end regulators offer a greater margin than the industry standard. So unfortunately, it is the higher priced SP products that offer the most advantage for purchase on-line and those are the sales most likely lost to the LDS as the total amount saved by buying on line becomes very high. Many customers will be swayed by a savings of $150-$200 on, for example, a Mk 25 S600 regulator. Consequently, those are the same items that dealers need to be allowed to discount more in order to be more competitive with on-line retailers.

The choice is pretty simple, SP needs to stop on-line sales by aggreesively tracking the products to their source and pulling the dealerships supplying the grey market or they need to admit the obvious - that they do not want to lose the volume and market share currently generated by on-line sales - and allow local dealers to price their products competitively with on-line retailers.

In the end this approach would provide the compromise of allowing SP to avoid the loss in sales and at the same time reduce on-line sales by making LDS purchases more attractive for customers. Generally, what LDS owners lost in margin and profit on individual sales, they would make up for in volume of sales. This would keep the dealer network healthy and at the same time keep prices fair and reasonable for LDS customers. If you reduce the appeal or the percieved need for an on-line product by improving the appeal of the LDS product, the on-line market for that product will reduce itself naturally.

 

[rmannix]

I had SP burned into my brain as the only serious reg there was when I taught for a SP store. The rest of the industry has caught up with and surpassed their perceived quality.
My next NEW reg will be something else, APEKS, Zeagle or Dive Rite. The rest of their product line (masks, fins, suits, BC's) is nothing special. I no longer think SP is worth it even at LP prices.
I'll get my new gear from my LDS which has been around for a long time and very close by. If my nearest LDS was a chain sporting goods store also selling golf or skiing crap then I would go online.

 

[garyfotodiver]

I had SP burned into my brain as the only serious reg there was when I taught for a SP store. The rest of the industry has caught up with and surpassed their perceived quality.

How can one surpass "perceived" quality? Quality is an objective, definable item, not some nebulous concept. Quality is designed into an item, not added to afterwards or tested for.

I trained with SP equipment, and I didn't find it any better than anything else I have used over the years. The Swimaster Polaris II regulator that I bought for $55 after certification worked just as well as the SP regulator I used in the pool and on my training dives. It took me to 110fsw on a nasty December day in the North Atlantic off the NJ shore.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I trained with SP equipment, and I didn't find it any better than anything else I have used over the years. The Swimaster Polaris II regulator that I bought for $55 after certification worked just as well as the SP regulator I used in the pool and on my training dives. It took me to 110fsw on a nasty December day in the North Atlantic off the NJ shore.

Well....That is a good example why shops might not want to use low end regulators in their rental programs - it can give a poor impression of the company's products as a whole as low end rental equipment does not compare well with higher end equipment.

And given that you certified in 1970, it is also a good example of how a low end Scubapro rental regulator in 1970 (probably an early production Mk 3) performed as well as an older top end regulator from another company. Despite your intent, if anything what you stated actually says something very good about Scubapro's reputation for quality and where it came from. And Scubapro was only 5 years old in 1970.

But your statement has absolutely nothing to do with the quality available in Scubapro's high end regulators today or even with the improved quality of their low end rental regulators now (Mk 2+ with an R190, R390 or R295 second stage) compared to 10, 20 or certainly 35 years ago.

Personally, I have used MK 2 R190's to 150 ft and on ice dives (and have also done the same with the older MK3 High performance) and dive with divers on a regular basis who use th Mk 2 R190 to 130 ft in cold water. I also test dove a customer's Mk 2 R190 for a weekend last summer with dives to 130 ft with upper 30/low 40 degree bottomtemps so my experience with one is actually recent.

In my experience, a Mk 2 R190 (the lowest end SP reg in production) peforms entirely adequately within recreational depths and is as good as or better than many regs of greater "quality" sold by other companies, particularly in ice diving conditions as it is very reliable in extremely cold water. To be honest it does not perform nearly as well as say, an Aqualung Legend (a high end Aqualung regulator), but then the Legend also does not perform as well as either the Scubapro Mk 17 X650 or Mk 17 G250 - and Scubapro (incorrectly) considers those both to be "intermediate" regulators compared to their Mk 25 X650 and Mk 25 S600.

 

[StSomewhere]

I've read about the original SP/Uwatec bendomatic nitrox computers and their "extreme reluctance" to actually do a recall in spite of the people who kept getting bent using the damned things. Hopefully they've learned a thing or two about this based on their experience and the experiences of other industries.

As far as factory replacement of batteries, I'll just add that there is a trust issue, you trust they will still be in business when you need the batteries replaced in the future. Now you can say that they are owned by a large corporation but as some of us know, large corporations (Enron, Worldcom, etc.) can self-destruct too. Plus, depending on where you live, will your LDS be in business and will they continue to be an authorized SP dealer? If not, what do you do?

The other issue is factoring in the time you are without your dive computer while its getting the factory battery replacement. This is not just a SP issue, the watch-sized Suunto lines have the exact same problem. I can't imagine why anyone would spend real money (big money!) on any dive computer -- SP or otherwise -- that requires a trip back to the factory for something as simple as a battery replacement. The Uwatec BT are the exception, since they are more of a disposable item.

 

[garyfotodiver]

Well....That is a good example why shops might not want to use low end regulators in their rental programs - it can give a poor impression of the company's products as a whole as low end rental equipment does not compare well with higher end equipment.

And given that you certified in 1970, it is also a good example of how a low end Scubapro rental regulator in 1970 (probably an early production Mk 3) performed as well as an older top end regulator from another company. Despite your intent, if anything what you stated actually says something very good about Scubapro's reputation for quality and where it came from. And Scubapro was only 5 years old in 1970.

But your statement has absolutely nothing to do with the quality available in Scubapro's high end regulators today or even with the improved quality of their low end rental regulators now (Mk 2+ with an R190, R390 or R295 second stage) compared to 10, 20 or certainly 35 years ago.

Personally, I have used MK 2 R190's to 150 ft and on ice dives (and have also done the same with the older MK3 High performance) and dive with divers on a regular basis who use th Mk 2 R190 to 130 ft in cold water. I also test dove a customer's Mk 2 R190 for a weekend last summer with dives to 130 ft with upper 30/low 40 degree bottomtemps so my experience with one is actually recent.

In my experience, a Mk 2 R190 (the lowest end SP reg in production) peforms entirely adequately within recreational depths and is as good as or better than many regs of greater "quality" sold by other companies, particularly in ice diving conditions as it is very reliable in extremely cold water. To be honest it does not perform nearly as well as say, an Aqualung Legend (a high end Aqualung regulator), but then the Legend also does not perform as well as either the Scubapro Mk 17 X650 or Mk 17 G250 - and Scubapro (incorrectly) considers those both to be "intermediate" regulators compared to their Mk 25 X650 and Mk 25 S600.

I didn't write ANYTHING sbout the SP regulators being low-end; did you read something between the lines? As it was, we used the high-end reulators and this instructor tried to sell us the most expensive of everything SP. As I have written before, he "modified" other brands of equipment so they wouldn't work as well as they should. He sold these other brands of equipment, but he wouldn't honor the manufacturer's warrantees on them. They were GTTD; that is, guaranteed through the door.

I do not think that SP regulators are worth the money. That's my opinion based on my experience.

BTW, I took my training at a YMCA and should have received a YMCA c-card. I didn't.

Some things never change.

 

[scubapro50]

I on a ScubaPro MK10 that's 2o years old. The dive shop that sold it to me is no longer in business. No matter where I take it for annual service it cost between $40 and $50 for labor and parts ( o rings ). I have never had a major problem that required a complete overhaul requireing major replacement of "free parts". The one thing you can say about ScubaPro regulators if you take care of them then they seem to last a long time. That's why you see so many older models on Ebay for sale. As far as computers go your right about not buying a dive computer that has to be sent back to the maker to change out a battery. I seen too many poor divers get off shore or out of the country to see thier $$$ computer die because of low battery. That's why I like the computers that you can purchase a battery at any dive shop or even Wal Mart and replace it yourself. ( I usually carry a spare battery when traveling and have been known to give it to another diver in need.

 

[dirthead]

What I heard from our LDS a couple weeks ago was that SP was going to start tracking serial numbers on larger reg orders (20 or more?) to ensure they were being sold at the shops that were originally ordering them.

That seems to be a recognition that grey market regs are getting there from current authorized SP dealers rather than from ex-dealers liquidating stock, etc. and does seem to demonstrate a willingness to try to do something about it.

I bought a SP Mk25/S600 from my LDS in July, and registered the product on SP's website. Upon entering the serial number on the registration page, the name of my LDS popped up in the "dive shop purchased from" line. I didn't enter that information anywhere. It seems that at least in this case, SP is already tracking serial numbers, since they knew what LDS that reg set went to.

 

[Wayward Son]

dirthead, it may be that the data was provided by the LDS after the sale. My LDS sends registration in on every reg they sell. So I have no idea if the SP system had it in there from the distribution side, or if the LDS was prompt at getting it registered. They can do it online, to, AFAIK.

I dive a Mk5 that I bought new in spring on 1978. That would be 27 years old now. It's in the shop for service now, parts are mostly no problem. The only part that he can't get is the exhaust T, that they don't make. But all the internal parts are readily available, and some are considerably cheaper than they used to be.