dumpsterDiver
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Yeah I was reading that as if she had additional non-ditchable lead... Probably a bad assumption on my part.
Scuba diver goes missing off Catalina Island
- Thread starter robertarak
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I did a two tank dive today with an operator I have used many times over the years, and I want to talk about how they handle the role call, etc. Then I want to talk about a specific incident that I feel might shed some light on situations like the one in this thread.
Before we left the dock, the captain called the role from the manifest, and he looked at each person who answered. (We had a dozen dives plus two dive masters) He then asked the DMs for their counts--they were required to count the people. They each had the same number, and we left the marina. After each of the dives, the captain asked both DMs for their counts, and he called the role, again making visual contact with each person as the responded to their names. It was quite thorough, I thought. It was also pretty much what I have seen from this operator each time I have dived with them in the past, and it was true with each of the different people who have captained the boat.
Because of that, I was quite shocked when, nearly a year ago, a thread started on ScubaBoard about a rumor that the operator had left a diver behind and had to go back out to recover him, fortunately successfully. It was just a rumor, and I jumped into the thread to say it was highly unlikely because of the procedures the operator used or calling the role. Unfortunately for the credibility of my defense, evidence was introduced that it had indeed happened. They had entered the intracoastal waterway and were cruising home when someone noticed one of the divers was missing. They rushed back out to the last dive site and found him quickly.
When I returned to Florida this year, I asked the captain I dived with today, who has become a friend over the years, what had happened. (He was not the captain in the incident.) He said the problem was that they did not have a whole lot of true paying customers, the customers were regulars, and a number of employees were also diving. As a result, the atmosphere got too loose, too collegial, and the standard protocols were not followed the way they should have been. They got complacent, and they let things slip.
Apparently even dive operators with very strict policies and procedures can let their guard down, and when they do....
Before we left the dock, the captain called the role from the manifest, and he looked at each person who answered. (We had a dozen dives plus two dive masters) He then asked the DMs for their counts--they were required to count the people. They each had the same number, and we left the marina. After each of the dives, the captain asked both DMs for their counts, and he called the role, again making visual contact with each person as the responded to their names. It was quite thorough, I thought. It was also pretty much what I have seen from this operator each time I have dived with them in the past, and it was true with each of the different people who have captained the boat.
Because of that, I was quite shocked when, nearly a year ago, a thread started on ScubaBoard about a rumor that the operator had left a diver behind and had to go back out to recover him, fortunately successfully. It was just a rumor, and I jumped into the thread to say it was highly unlikely because of the procedures the operator used or calling the role. Unfortunately for the credibility of my defense, evidence was introduced that it had indeed happened. They had entered the intracoastal waterway and were cruising home when someone noticed one of the divers was missing. They rushed back out to the last dive site and found him quickly.
When I returned to Florida this year, I asked the captain I dived with today, who has become a friend over the years, what had happened. (He was not the captain in the incident.) He said the problem was that they did not have a whole lot of true paying customers, the customers were regulars, and a number of employees were also diving. As a result, the atmosphere got too loose, too collegial, and the standard protocols were not followed the way they should have been. They got complacent, and they let things slip.
Apparently even dive operators with very strict policies and procedures can let their guard down, and when they do....
Bob DBF
Contributor
As far as I can tell, no one knows exactly what she was diving at the time, only her preferred choices. Same goes for her dive plan.
Second, a plate and tank are not "non-ditchable". Anyone that dives without a BC knows where their weight is and how to get rid of it, there is no backup buoyancy other than your wetsuit. A drysuit gives more options, but might be considered a BC.
Bob
Ken Kurtis
Contributor
Absolutely not. I've been booking boats in SoCal since 1988 and every diver on board is paid up front. I don't know of a single operation that says "Come and dive and just pay us at the end of the day." No-shows and "I didn't enjoy myself so I'm not paying" would be a financial death knell.
If you're comfortable with it, can you name any boats where this is the case.
Now if you're talking the CHARTER CHECK from a chartering group, yes, that's frequently done at the end of the day. But certainly not on a "We'll pay you if everything was OK" basis.
But the way you phrased it, it sounds like you're saying that the norm in SoCal if for individuals to pay at the end of the day and that's just not the case (other than galley bills for those boats that still charge a separate galley).
- Ken
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Ken Kurtis
Contributor
Equipment failure is so rare - certainly when you look at it statistically - as almost to be not worth mentioning. It "could" have happened is certainly not the same as "there's a statistical probability that this did/didn't happen."
- Ken
Ken Kurtis
Contributor
Whether or not these numbers are correct in terms of what she actually was wearing (which is not the point of this post), if we start discussing this remember that this 14-negative only applies at the beginning of the dive. Since some of the weight comes from the air (yes, Virginia, air has weight - 0.08lbs/cf) if we're dealing with an empty tank, then we're dealing with 8-negative. Still negative but 6 pounds less negative.
I used to do a weight drill with my students where I had them treading water properly weight, no air ni the BC, and then handed them a 5-pound weight and had them continue treading. It got much harder. I'd close with "Anyone want to dive 5 pounds over-weighted?"
The point is that you need to make some assumption about where in the dive the problem occurred because that will change the amount of negative buoyancy and what the response to that might have been.
- Ken
KevinNM
Contributor
I paid on the Sundiver (the big boat) as we were heading back to Long Beach. I however was with an instructor that all knew and he had set the trip up, so I'm not saying this was how they usually worked.
Hatul
Contributor
The no BC issue keeps following this accident, and again I hear from the local dive community grape vine here that she forgot her BC. Now how can someone dive with no BC? I've not seen a tank harness without a BC in all the years I've been diving. And then it hit me.
She has photos of herself, on Facebook, diving in a wetsuit and a Deep Sea Supply BP/wing, and the manufacturer of this BC recommends removing the wing after diving. So it's very possible she brought the harness and BP and left her wing at home. Of course this is speculation but we have no facts so this is possible.
If true that she dove solo with no buoyancy wing it's extremely dangerous, especially at a dive site that drops off so steeply. There was an experiment by UTD where a diver in a 7mm wetsuit dove to 90 ft and simulated a BC failure -- which is the same thing as no BC-- and the diver was unable to fin herself up without dropping weights. And dropping weights from a 90 ft dive is also extremely dangerous. She may have exhausted herself trying to overcome negative buoyancy at 80+ feet when her 7mm wetsuit compressed.
She has photos of herself, on Facebook, diving in a wetsuit and a Deep Sea Supply BP/wing, and the manufacturer of this BC recommends removing the wing after diving. So it's very possible she brought the harness and BP and left her wing at home. Of course this is speculation but we have no facts so this is possible.
If true that she dove solo with no buoyancy wing it's extremely dangerous, especially at a dive site that drops off so steeply. There was an experiment by UTD where a diver in a 7mm wetsuit dove to 90 ft and simulated a BC failure -- which is the same thing as no BC-- and the diver was unable to fin herself up without dropping weights. And dropping weights from a 90 ft dive is also extremely dangerous. She may have exhausted herself trying to overcome negative buoyancy at 80+ feet when her 7mm wetsuit compressed.
dumpsterDiver
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This thread is pretty ridiculous without even the most basic information wrt did she have a BC or not?
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Won't someone on the boat say?
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