Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[Slamfire]

"Everybody has a breaking point". Maybe.

"Everybody will reach said breaking point and panic sometime before they drown". Not true. We see it time and time again with freedivers. Those that are fortunate enough to have a buddy nearby can tell you panic was non-existent.

I'm sure Marcia wouldn't have panicked initially/immediately upon air depletion. I'm sure she did, shortly before she died - when the realization hit her that she couldn't/wouldn't resolve the situation. Who wouldn't?

I won't pretend to know what was going in Quero's head in those last moments. I don't know where you derive your certainty in the matter. I was only painting a potential scenario that I honestly believe could have been a somewhat viable possibility.

Andy, you are going to die. It is not up for debate. It will happen. Given that inevitability, I ask you, how would you like to die? To me, dying underwater is not such a bad way to go. I prefer it much better than losing my mind slowly to Alzheimers. Going out at 700ft while enjoying the euforia of narcosis just before I get an O2 hit seems rather nice. But if I were to be hopelessly trapped inside a wreck at 130 ft, I hope I can endure those last 2 or 3 breathless minutes well away from panic. Note that I say "I hope" because you never know until you actually face it yourself. Still, right now those 3 minutes seem better than a decade of Alzheimers.

"...When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose lives are filled with the fear of death, so that when time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."
Tecumseh

 

[buddhasummer]

"Everybody has a breaking point". Maybe.

"Everybody will reach said breaking point and panic sometime before they drown". Not true. We see it time and time again with freedivers. Those that are fortunate enough to have a buddy nearby can tell you panic was non-existent.

I won't pretend to know what was going in Quero's head in those last moments. I don't know where you derive your certainty in the matter. I was only painting a potential scenario that I honestly believe could have been a somewhat viable possibility.

Andy, you are going to die. It is not up for debate. It will happen. Given that inevitability, I ask you, how would you like to die? To me, dying underwater is not such a bad way to go. I prefer it much better than losing my mind slowly to Alzheimers. Going out at 700ft while enjoying the euforia of narcosis just before I get an O2 hit seems rather nice. But if I were to be hopelessly trapped inside a wreck at 130 ft, I hope I can endure those last 2 or 3 breathless minutes well away from panic. Note that I say "I hope" because you never know until you actually face it yourself. Still, right now those 3 minutes seem better than a decade of Alzheimers.

"...When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose lives are filled with the fear of death, so that when time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."
Tecumseh

Given the choice of course but this was not a choice, it was a tragic untimely unnecessary avoidable death.

When my time is up it's up but I'm not rushing to meet it and would rather it be later than sooner, I'm sure Marcia would say the same if she were able. For me the cliché offers little comfort.

 

[DevonDiver]

"Everybody has a breaking point". Maybe.

I think to assume otherwise is unrealistic.

Unrealistic assumptions are forgivable, as most people never encounter, or even approach, that breaking point in their lives.

"Everybody will reach said breaking point and panic sometime before they drown". Not true. We see it time and time again with freedivers. Those that are fortunate enough to have a buddy nearby can tell you panic was non-existent.

You missed the nuance of my point.

What I said was: "I mean any controlled circumstance where the diver concerned has no real cause to feel their life is threatened"

Your quote supports that statement. In particular; "Those that are fortunate enough to have a buddy nearby can tell you panic was non-existent".

The same applies in situations such as SEAL training... trainees are harassed to the point (or beyond) of unconsciousness whilst submerged. Yet.. they know that their situation is relatively safe. They are supervised. They will be dragged from the water and resuscitated immediately if they pass out. There is expert medical aid at the poolside. They are reasonably confident that their life will not end. "No real cause"...

The same applies to experienced divers who do not fear the sensation air depletion. Air depletion doesn't equal 'death' in their mind. They are confident of resolution. On rare occasions, that confidence is misplaced. Worst still, that confidence can lead to a resolution not being sought in sufficient time. There will always be a crux moment, however, when that confidence is shattered... at which point, "real cause" becomes horribly apparent.

I won't pretend to know what was going in Quero's head in those last moments. I don't know where you derive your certainty in the matter. I was only painting a potential scenario that I honestly believe could have been a somewhat viable possibility.

I'm certain in my opinion only. It remains an opinion. It is based on a certain amount of empathy and understanding.

I see no other reason why someone with a known, extensive, in-water confidence and proven skill-set would have failed to enact any successful life-saving response under such benign circumstances.

I empathize with this scenario based on how I feel underwater - being air-depleted doesn't phase me at all. I remain confident and calm. I haven't felt close to panic underwater for many years.. I have an (over)confidence that I can, and will, resolve any issues that I am confronted with. To date, I have done. I have to guard against that through self-discipline, because my "warning bells" just don't alarm me otherwise (or at least, won't do so until the final seconds, when it is too late).

Andy, you are going to die. It is not up for debate. It will happen. Given that inevitability, I ask you, how would you like to die? To me, dying underwater is not such a bad way to go. I prefer it much better than losing my mind slowly to Alzheimers. Going out at 700ft while enjoying the euforia of narcosis just before I get an O2 hit seems rather nice. But if where to be hopelessly trapped inside a wreck at 130 ft, I hope I can endure those last 2 or 3 breathless minutes well away from panic. Note that I say "I hope" because you never know until you actually face it yourself. Still, right now those 3 minutes seem better than a decade of Alzheimers.

It's easy to be romantic about death when the consideration is hypothetical, not practical. It speaks to me of an immaturity brought about by an insulated existence - a phenomena that only exists in those yet to be actually confronted by immediate cessation of their own mortality.

 

[buddhasummer]

I think to assume otherwise is unrealistic.



You missed the nuance of my point.

What I said was: "I mean any controlled circumstance where the diver concerned has no real cause to feel their life is threatened"

Your quote supports that statement. In particular; "Those that are fortunate enough to have a buddy nearby can tell you panic was non-existent".

The same applies in situations such as SEAL training... trainees are harassed to the point (or beyond) of unconsciousness whilst submerged. Yet.. they know that their situation is relatively safe. They are supervised. They will be dragged from the water and resuscitated immediately if they pass out. There is expert medical aid at the poolside. They are reasonably confident that their life will not end. "No real cause"...

The same applies to experienced divers who do not fear the sensation air depletion. Air depletion doesn't equal 'death' in their mind. They are confident of resolution. On rare occasions, that confidence is misplaced. Worst still, that confidence can lead to a resolution not being sought in sufficient time. There will always be a crux moment, however, when that confidence is shattered... at which point, "real cause" becomes horribly apparent.



I'm certain in my opinion only. It remains an opinion.

I see no other reason why someone with a known, extensive, in-water confidence and proven skill-set would have failed to enact any life-saving response. I also judge this scenario based on how I feel underwater - being air-depleted doesn't phase me at all. I remain confident and calm. I haven't felt close to panic underwater for many years.. I have an (over)confidence that I can, and will, resolve any issues that I am confronted with. I have to guard against that through self-discipline, because my "warning bells" just don't alarm me otherwise (or at least, won't do so until the final seconds, when it is too late).



It's easy to be romantic about death when the consideration is hypothetical, not practical. They speak to me of an immaturity brought about by an insulated existence - a phenomena that only exists in those yet to be actually confronted by immediate cessation of their own mortality.

Isn't it...

 

[lionfish-eater]

You are all talking about panic as is it is controlled by rational thought. We may be able to use our mind to mitigate the circumstances to help prevent panic, but only up to a point. There is a more powerful component that is physiological. Panic response may be a very important survival instinct that triggers reactions within our body, beyond any efforts to "remain calm".

I recently had to enter a confined space on land. Completely safe, but very tight space. I have never been claustrophobic and have been in some very questionable spaces before without problems. This one time I got about 1/2 way in and it hit. I instantly had a reaction of raised heart rate, raised temperature, fast breathing and a very fast exit. At no time was I in any danger, and there was no reason for my reaction. After a few minutes I was easily able to reenter without any problem. I was very disturbed when I realized how quickly and uncontrollable the panic was. I thought about what might have happened if I had that response while diving. It would have prevented me from thinking logically and solving whatever problem I may encounter. Now that I know what it feels like and how irrational it is, I hope that if it ever happens again, I will be able to recognize it for what it is and shake it fast.

 

[DaleC]

Tecumseh's quote is not a romantification of death. It's an admonishment about living.

 

[MB2013]

I have a diving buddy who believes he is ten feet tall and bullet proof, very little experience. I've regularly tried to talk with him about things that can wrong, how easy it can be to panic and drown, how you don't know what you don't know. He shrugs it off. He claims he doesn't panic, I ask how he knows that and with some arrogance he says it's not in his personality "I just don't panic" he says. We are diving tomorrow and I will attempt one more conversation if it's met with the same bravado and arrogance it will be my last dive with him. I feel terribly sad about Marcia's death and I only met her once I can only imagine how I'd feel if it was someone I knew better and was diving with that person at the time. No way. I know we will never know the exact sequence of events or what was going through Marcia's head that lead to this tragedy but I can't get out of my head why weights weren't dropped...I've had three close friends/family pass over the last 12 months but Marcia's death has affected me the most, it was sudden, unexpected and in all likelyhood avoidable...all rather sobering.

buddhasummer you should maybe get your buddy to read this thread. Hopefully he wont think he's bulletproof while diving afterwards. I know it has made me think about my own diving. I haven't been the best buddy in the past especially in instant buddy situations.

 

[Diver0001]

I know it has made me think about my own diving. I haven't been the best buddy in the past especially in instant buddy situations.

I love hearing people admitting that this has put them to thinking. Several people have mentioned it during this thread, including myself.

If we're learning from her mistakes then Marcia's death was not in vain. Using this to make our own diving just that little bit "tighter" is the best way we can honor her memory now.

R..

 

[buddhasummer]

buddhasummer you should maybe get your buddy to read this thread. Hopefully he wont think he's bulletproof while diving afterwards. I know it has made me think about my own diving. I haven't been the best buddy in the past especially in instant buddy situations.

Good idea, thanks.

---------- Post added October 18th, 2013 at 03:16 AM ----------

I love hearing people admitting that this has put them to thinking. Several people have mentioned it during this thread, including myself.

If we're learning from her mistakes then Marcia's death was not in vain. Using this to make our own diving just that little bit "tighter" is the best way we can honor her memory now.

R..

Absolutely...

 

[DevonDiver]

You are all talking about panic as if it is controlled by rational thought.

Not really. We're talking about triggers for panic.

I've always ascertained everyone can experience acute stress response (i.e. panic). When they do, it provokes one of three (not two) reactions: Fight, Flight or Feint. Some people, in some circumstances, do tend towards the 'feint'; "playing dead" as it were. Otherwise known as "passive panic". I've seen this happen first-hand with divers - it's like a 'tonic immobility (see below)'.

Any of those three reactions is likely to prove counter-productive to a scuba diver seeking to preserve their safety.

Article: Scuba Diving Stress Management and Acute Panic Response

Medical Paper: Is there tonic immobility in humans? Biological evidence from victims of traumatic stress.

"Tonic immobility, characterized by profound motor inhibition, is elicited under inescapable threat in many species. To fully support the existence of tonic immobility in humans, our aim was to elicit this reaction in a laboratory setting and measure it objectively....Reports of script-induced immobility were associated with restricted area of body sway and were correlated with accelerated heart rate and diminished heart rate variability, implying that tonic immobility is preserved in humans as an involuntary defensive strategy".

Understanding this trilogy of panic responses helps explain some accounts of people who "remain calm" at the point of traumatic death. In short, appearances can be deceptive...

The real issue, IMHO, is what happens BEFORE the panic manifests. The psychological processes that lead to the panic state and subsequent injury/death. This is where rational thought comes into play... but also, and I believe, where conditioned responses and thought-processes have an important role. Of particular note, as I have already mentioned, are the issues of complacency (generally) and distorted perception of acute risk (localized to actually experiencing air-depletion).

I am theorizing that "too much" experience of a given stressor (i.e. air-depletion) can alter our perception of that acute, immediate, risk; and thus our conditioned response becomes subdued in a negative way. In short, we cease to become scared in situations that should scare us. This, in turn, delays us from initiating an appropriate response. In rare cases, that delay could be fatal.

I believe that this is a potential risk that particularly applies to exceptionally experienced divers, or dive professionals.

Did Marcia panic before she died? I think probably, near certainly, that she did... in one way, or another.

Did Marcia panic early into the incident; causing her to fail to resolve a reasonably resolvable situation? No, I don't think she did. That would be quite inexplicable, given her experience and training. I think it is more likely that she failed to recognize/acknowledge the severity of the situation until it was far too late; potentially even beyond the point of air-depletion. Her conditioned (subdued) responses to that threat worked against her. Only once it was too late did that realization occur. At which point, time/consciousness was too short to allow the problem solving necessary for resolution.