Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[lionfish-eater]

S_Brown, I'm not saying everybody would react the way prescribed.....but a veteran diver SHOULD have the presence of mind to keep calm and work through solutions. I HAVE run out of air under water (buddy screwing with me, but I was low so I thought I ran out) and what was discussed was exactly what happened. I exhaled, got VERY little on the inhale until the tank went dry. I checked my octo to see if it was my second stage. I checked my LPI. Nothing on either. I looked down, fumbled with my weights to get them unhooked (new weight belt, first few dives with a crotch strap), and finned it to the surface (~30ft). I started finning to the surface about 15 seconds after sucking my reg dry (according to my buddy's recounting of his actions during my struggle) but felt like an eternity. I was calm, cool, and collected....even though I had empty lungs. Whether your lungs are empty or full, you have some time to play with before your body starts taking over control regardless of what your mind decides. Full lungs will buy you MORE time, sure....but you have time either way. The actions described in the post you disagree with are VERY doable with empty lungs.

Why did you start fining to the surface instead of going to your buddy? Did your buddy shut your tank off as a prank or joke? You should take your conversation to another thread. Mods?

 

[DevonDiver]

I'm seeing some ludicrous comments about psychological responses to air depletion.

It's important to understand the difference between hypothetical and practical. When I say 'hypothetical'... I mean any controlled circumstance where the diver concerned has no real cause to feel their life is threatened. If you know that you can resolve a situation then acute stress won't manifest. That's true whether you can lift your head out of the bathtub, or whether you're an instructor demonstrating 'reg out' skills knowing you have plenty of options available.

I'm sure Marcia wouldn't have panicked initially/immediately upon air depletion. I'm sure she did, shortly before she died - when the realization hit her that she couldn't/wouldn't resolve the situation. Who wouldn't?

The simple fact remains, Marcia didn't have enough time to effect a resolution to her problem... panicked or not.

If very comfortable with air depletion (as many experienced divers/pros are) this could have worked against her. It suppresses the sense of urgency that should exist under those conditions. A refined process of self-control over-ride exists... whereby the diver remains calm when they actually need to be very concerned. It errs judgement... and can lead into situation where insufficient time exists to enact a successful resolution. Experienced divers become conditioned to view air-depletion as a theoretical, not a practical stimulus. Only upon realization that a resolution is beyond your grasp, given the timescale, ...that you are in a practical emergency....does acute stress response manifest. Either way, it's too late then.

Some might consider this theoretical/practical displacement as a form of complacency. I'm inclined to view as a form of negative conditioned response.

Some might believe that Marcia panicked early. From self-analysis as an active dive pro, I'm inclined to think the opposite. She panicked too late...

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I'm seeing some ludicrous comments about psychological responses to air depletion.

It's important to understand the difference between hypothetical and practical. When I say 'hypothetical'... I mean any controlled circumstance where the diver concerned has no real cause to feel their life is threatened. If you know that you can resolve a situation then acute stress won't manifest. That's true whether you can lift your head out of the bathtub, or whether you're an instructor demonstrating 'reg out' skills knowing you have plenty of options available.

I'm sure Marcia wouldn't have panicked initially/immediately upon air depletion. I'm sure she did, shortly before she died - when the realization hit her that she couldn't/wouldn't resolve the situation. Who wouldn't?

The simple fact remains, Marcia didn't have enough time to effect a resolution to her problem... panicked or not.

If very comfortable with air depletion (as many experienced divers/pros are) this could have worked against her. It suppresses the sense of urgency that should exist under those conditions. A refined process of self-control over-ride exists... whereby the diver remains calm when they actually need to be very concerned. It errs judgement... and can lead into situation where insufficient time exists to enact a successful resolution. Experienced divers become conditioned to view air-depletion as a theoretical, not a practical stimulus. Only upon realization that a resolution is beyond your grasp, given the timescale, ...that you are in a practical emergency....does acute stress response manifest. Either way, it's too late then.

Some might consider this theoretical/practical displacement as a form of complacency. I'm inclined to view as a form of negative conditioned response.

SHE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME? What are you talking about? How long does it take to drop lead and float to the surface from 10 feet? Seriously, what scenario are you assuming?

It is very difficult to remain calm and work on things underwater with empty lungs, but dropping lead and ascending should take less than 12 seconds..

 

[je76]

I am not talking about stress or how stress affects panic limits.

What I am talking about is the amount of air you have in your lungs when you realize you just ran out of air and the correlation between the amount of air actually in your lungs as it relates to how much time you have to solve your problem.

My statement relates directly to slamfire's description of what he would like to believe Quero's last moments were like. I was merely clarifying that you do not have a big lungful of air to work with.
In neither of my situations did I panic, in fact I resolved complicated problems and came back alive. Both time were at night in blackwater in river current during recovery operations.

I myself am able to swim 90-100 feet underwater on a single breath, with both lungs full of fresh air. I couldn't do the same with both lungs empty.

I can hold my breath ALOT longer sitting doing nothing than I can actually working. I agree that I could probably last alot longer than 30 seconds but I would imagine that working to solve my problem and panic starting to set in would cause my oxygenated system to use that oxygen much quicker than 5 minutes.

---------- Post added October 17th, 2013 at 10:20 PM ----------

This is not about establishing myself as an expert or not. It's about a promoting healthy view regarding panic and controlling it. My dad used to teach me about diving and diving principles many years before he actually allowed me to go into the water with a tank. One of the things he drilled time and time again into my head is that if you give in to panic you will die much faster. Panic is not a clear cut line in the sand. It's a continuum of many different shades that goes from full black to pristine white. You say you did not panic in your incidents and I believe you. But do you think you could have brought your heart rate a little lower during those incidents? My dad used to say to me, "Go slow, because we're in a hurry". A UTD instructor around here says "if you think you're going slow, go slower". I think I heard somebody else say "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast."

I have been in an OOA incident early on my diving. I brought the J valve down and nothing happened. I gave OOA signal to my dad as I start ascending slower than my small bubbles and my dad starts to rush at me trying to take my harness off. I pushed him off because I had no intention of abandoning a rig and potentially losing it. He did not fight me but stayed really close. We got to the surface and surface swam with an empty on my back.

Ironically one of the last discussions I had with Quero was about the lack guidance related to panic management that you find in current OW courses. I believe it is absolutely essential material that is missing from the curriculum.

I prefer the addage I was taught, Slow is Smooth and Smooth is Fast.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I'm seeing some ludicrous comments about psychological responses to air depletion.

It's important to understand the difference between hypothetical and practical. When I say 'hypothetical'... I mean any controlled circumstance where the diver concerned has no real cause to feel their life is threatened. If you know that you can resolve a situation then acute stress won't manifest. That's true whether you can lift your head out of the bathtub, or whether you're an instructor demonstrating 'reg out' skills knowing you have plenty of options available.

I'm sure Marcia wouldn't have panicked initially/immediately upon air depletion. I'm sure she did, shortly before she died - when the realization hit her that she couldn't/wouldn't resolve the situation. Who wouldn't?

The simple fact remains, Marcia didn't have enough time to effect a resolution to her problem... panicked or not.

If very comfortable with air depletion (as many experienced divers/pros are) this could have worked against her. It suppresses the sense of urgency that should exist under those conditions. A refined process of self-control over-ride exists... whereby the diver remains calm when they actually need to be very concerned. It errs judgement... and can lead into situation where insufficient time exists to enact a successful resolution. Experienced divers become conditioned to view air-depletion as a theoretical, not a practical stimulus. Only upon realization that a resolution is beyond your grasp, given the timescale, ...that you are in a practical emergency....does acute stress response manifest. Either way, it's too late then.

Some might consider this theoretical/practical displacement as a form of complacency. I'm inclined to view as a form of negative conditioned response.

Some might believe that Marcia panicked early. From self-analysis as an active dive pro, I'm inclined to think the opposite. She panicked too late...

Except that several minutes (at least) of gas seem to have been just a few inches away, accessible via her wing's oral inflation option.

I'll agree though that there's a sweet spot between panicking as soon as you're deprived of something to breathe while diving, and thinking it's no big deal because you have time and can just work through all your options calmly. Without knowing how restrictive the dry suit really was we can't say for sure, but I'm willing to bet that had her reactions have been 'reach for valve if easily possible, swim up if easily possible, drop weights if easily possible, ditch rig by any means necessary', tempering the amount of time spent on any step save the last one with the knowledge that being OOA is a true emergency until you reach the surface and can stay there...she'd have lived.

Lessons learned: don't panic, but don't forget the only thing not expendable is you and you cannot spend too much time or effort on any option short of getting free and swimming up.

---------- Post added October 17th, 2013 at 07:29 PM ----------

I prefer the addage I was taught, Slow is Smooth and Smooth is Fast.

Had that one hammered into me on drawing from the holster and FTF drills... guess it's true for diving, too.

 

[DaleC]

Right on Andy, that's what I believe too (about not being concerned working against her)

I have gone OOA at 100 feet with a Scuba Pro Mk17/R295. I inhaled the last out of the tank on an in breath, realized what had happened and did a reg swap while still videotaping a long swim over of a wreck. No panic, no burning lungs screaming out for air. I knew I was OOA but felt completely in control of the situation. What if I could not easily reach my alternate reg? Would I panic immediately or think I had to do a sweep with my arm, rotate to the right to see if it dangles, reach behind my head.. finally think "oh f_ck the video", where is that thing... sh-t I'm in trouble here - At that point I may make a final decision and become task focused on it, without considering alternatives. Better swim up.... Kick kick kick.....

I can easily see how Slamfire's scenario could play out - especially if you consider she may have felt in control right up to the point where she realizes her efforts are failing and decides to swim up her heavy rig instead of dumping weights. It would seem a more simple solution in 10' of water after all that won't require returning later for the weights. In retrospect, heavy exertion after a prolonged breath hold. Maybe she made the surface but could not keep her head up and swallowed water. Try treading water while overweighted and see what happens. You most likely slip beneath without calling out or making a sound. Happens in drowning cases all the time. They were there.. and then they were gone - no signs of struggle to those around. All they had to do was float or call for help but instead they become completely task focused on dog paddling, even when it's failing.

Drowning Doesn't Look Like Drowning
http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/

Also, I don't know what kind of camera she had but my buddy has a $5000 job with a dome port that he would definitely not drop to the bottom easily. At what point does an avid photographer make that decision.

 

[tracydr]

I am not an MD, but I have talked with one about this very topic. Yes, you go a long time before brain damage sets in, but you are unconscious for a while before that happens. It takes more than 30 seconds, though. I was told we usually have about 1 to 1.5 minutes of consciousness from the oxygen circulating in our blood if we do not inhale. Of course, if we inhale, we get a lot more.



My experience is the opposite. When I was assisting classes as a DM and had to do the air depletion exercise in the pool, I assure you that at that depth, there was no warning before OOA whatsoever. You are breathing just fine and then BANG!--nothing! When I have breathed stage bottles down to empty in deeper water, I have gotten some warning. When I have breathed them down at even greater depths--say 150 feet--I have gotten several breaths of warning.

This was my experience as well. One breath air, next breath nothing. I'm sure it's different deeper and with different regs but that was my experience in the pool with my good reg. We have an older reg on a small bottle and that one gives me some warning.

 

[DevonDiver]

SHE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME? What are you talking about? How long does it take to drop lead and float to the surface from 10 feet? Seriously, what scenario are you assuming?

I'm assuming the scenario that I just took several minutes to clearly describe...

That Marcia was conditioned not to recognize an "emergency" due to her in-water/air-depletion comfort. This subsequently delayed her critical responses until such time as those responses were not feasible to apply in time.

... dropping lead and ascending should take less than 12 seconds..

She delayed that response and didn't have those 12 seconds of clear thinking.

 

[buddhasummer]

I have a diving buddy who believes he is ten feet tall and bullet proof, very little experience. I've regularly tried to talk with him about things that can wrong, how easy it can be to panic and drown, how you don't know what you don't know. He shrugs it off. He claims he doesn't panic, I ask how he knows that and with some arrogance he says it's not in his personality "I just don't panic" he says. We are diving tomorrow and I will attempt one more conversation if it's met with the same bravado and arrogance it will be my last dive with him. I feel terribly sad about Marcia's death and I only met her once I can only imagine how I'd feel if it was someone I knew better and was diving with that person at the time. No way. I know we will never know the exact sequence of events or what was going through Marcia's head that lead to this tragedy but I can't get out of my head why weights weren't dropped...I've had three close friends/family pass over the last 12 months but Marcia's death has affected me the most, it was sudden, unexpected and in all likelyhood avoidable...all rather sobering.

 

[ams511]

This was my experience as well. One breath air, next breath nothing. I'm sure it's different deeper and with different regs but that was my experience in the pool with my good reg. We have an older reg on a small bottle and that one gives me some warning.

This was covered many posts ago. To summarize, with balanced regulators you get no warning that your air is about to run out. with unbalanced regulators you get some warning as the work of breathing increases. It has nothing to do with the age of the regulator.

---------- Post added October 17th, 2013 at 07:30 PM ----------

Why did you start fining to the surface instead of going to your buddy?

This is part of the problem isn't it. He instinctively tried to solve the problem first instead of swimming to / or signalling to his buddy and working out the problem with an available supply of air.