Scary dives in Coz last week

[Walter]

coppermaus,

Yeah, I really think so. I'm frankly impressed with your ability to reason at that depth and to effectively deal with the situations that arose. You were well on your way to getting ready for that dive. You hit the nail squarely on the head when you said, "different toes."

Three times a year isn't very much diving in the grand scheme of things. You'd made 5 dives in the two days prior, I'm guessing at least three of them were in current and probably only one or two were to 80 feet. A couple dives near 100 ft, then a dive or two near 110 feet and you'd probably be ready for 130 ft. Your buddy will probably never be ready for that depth.

"But maybe the fact that I didn't handle it well is proof enough that I shouldn't have been there..."

Actually, this tends to make me believe you'd be ready more quickly than most. I think you did handle it very well. With a little more experience, you wouldn't have had a problem at all.

I don't know how common carrying a safety sausage is, but I do know it's becoming much more common and I rarely dive in the ocean without one. I never live boat without one.

I'm glad you are thinking about your mistakes and what went wrong. OTOH, you kept your calm and reacted well. Don't beat yourself up, just learn from the experience. I'd be happy to dive with you.

 

[5615mike]

With all the boat traffic in Coz I can't imagine diving without one. Especially in high season. You surface in the boat lane and if you have to surface early before your DM/group and the seas are the least bit rough, you can easily be missed by capt. Not worth the risk IMO.

Regarding the issue of depth. 150+ is deep by anyones standards. Frankly, the vast majority of divers have no business being at that depth because they are not trained to be there. Having a "thing" at 150' vs 75' creates a whole host of problems that most don't understand. It's not just a matter of an additional 75'. If you are there for any time at all your looking at a deco obligation and an OOA/free flow reg/or other problems create issues for you and your buddy if your not diving solo. Do you, the buddy, have adequate gas for both of you to handle Deco obligation? Has this ever been practiced? How are you going to handle the stress/task load? If your going to dive deep, get the educaton from Deep Air, Adv. Nitrox or similar. 150 on air is deep. Hard to believe you were not narc'd hard. Some don't but just because you were not on that dive does not mean you won't be the next time it happens.

Most of all........your both OK and your evaluating the situation.

 

[DandyDon]

I dived with a Gabriel verlord: there in November '03 - probably the same one, who was written up in the last Undercurrent "Chapbook" for bad safety. I don't look to a Guide to help me with my safety, but - when I emailed the operator later about safety concerns on the rental gear, Guides' gear, and loose handbars on the boat, all I got was an invitation to come back.

Walter pretty well sums it up here...

I don't care which operation. There are important lessons to be learned from this incident. Those lessons are much more important than knowing which operation took them diving - especially since DM's like this are common in Cozumel.

More so when leaving the U.S., when the U.S.Coast Guard, courts, and insurance companies have no oversight - one must be prepared to take care of one's own safety, never "trust me" dives! Also don't expect Personal Flotation Devices even for channel crossings, nor fire extinguishers even!

The Guide :scared: - who surely knows how deep he was on a wall he does a hundred times a year, regardless of his "broken guage" excuse - was inappropriate in taking these divers on that wall or the Devils Throat, I think, and this Colorado lady did well to take care of herself and her newbie buddy.

don

 

[gj62]

I dived with a Gabriel verlord: there in November '03 - probably the same one, who was written up in the last Undercurrent "Chapbook" for bad safety.
don

Don, you had the good sense to check a reference book and discover that this may be a person who had a black mark from another source (and a good one, at that).

I wonder if Coppermaus can confirm? If so, this would be a BIG warning to avoid this person - especially for newer or less experienced divers.

Sure wish others would see that justice is not being served by witholding the names involved - in fact, the opposite may just be true...

Granted, for more experienced divers it is not as critical - hopefully we can take care of ourselves more than newer divers. But as we've seen on this site, many newly minted divers are heading to Coz, which is advanced to begin with. Ending up with a DM that is not cutting it could get people in REAL trouble...

 

[ScubaTexan]

At the risk of sounded jaded. It is like the blue hole in Belize. It's a been there done that dive.

I have been there (devils throat) several times not a paticular favorite but you ultimately get on a boat with someone who wants to do it and you go.

The thrill is the swim throughs and coming out of the tunnel an looking down into the blue abyss , but it is usually a quick glance before you have to go. I have only seen one large animal on that dive an eagle ray.

There are much better dives that you can stay at longer Santa Rosa for one I prefer longer bottom time more than thrilling dives but everyone like something different.

Sounds like it would be a better dive done on Nitrox, where you could have a little more bottom time. That is, if you're on a boat that allows Nitrox dives.

 

[DandyDon]

I wonder if Coppermaus can confirm? If so, this would be a BIG warning to avoid this person - especially for newer or less experienced divers.

Sure wish others would see that justice is not being served by witholding the names involved - in fact, the opposite may just be true...

No - really, as Walter said, this type is all too common there. It doesn't matter where he was; he's everywhere.

(1) Newbies: Be sure that everyone knows that you are a greenhorn, willing to learn, but - ask for help!!

(2) Eveyone: Take care of your safety, keep learning, and no "trust me" dives.

Sounds like it would be a better dive done on Nitrox, where you could have a little more bottom time. That is, if you're on a boat that allows Nitrox dives.

On Devils Throat - down to 135 feet?! :xeye: Not me! The lowest EANx you can get in Cozumel is 32%, with a Soft Bottom of 111 feet. The Guides on my January trip did it there, but I wouldn't!! :confused1

don

 

[ronrosa]

Sounds like it would be a better dive done on Nitrox, where you could have a little more bottom time. That is, if you're on a boat that allows Nitrox dives.

Devil's Throat on nitrox ? Crazy if you ask me. Too deep unless you like convulsions.

 

[5615mike]

Devil's Throat on nitrox ? Crazy if you ask me. Too deep unless you like convulsions.

I'm with you ron

 

[hisinco]

I've been reading this ongoing thread with interest, and have to comment coppermaus for inviting advice not only once, but twice. You are either thick skinned or a glutton for punishment. You?ve already received some good comments along the lines of what I would have offered; most of what Walter said echo my own thoughts. I also agree with what Crispos said about needing to offer to share air sooner, and would like to add my 2 cents worth. In my experience, it has been such a common experience for my buddies to consume air at a much faster rate than I, that I have developed a protocol to deal with the situation in a way that seems to work well for both me and my buddy. Before the dive, in the process of discussing our dive plan, we talk about what our turnaround point will be for the dive based on a mutually agreed on PSI level. I tell my buddy I will be checking with him periodically to ask his air level, and if when he reaches the ?turnaround? psi level, if I still have substantially more air, I will at that point offer to share my octopus with him so we can continue the dive until my air level is closer to the turnaround psi, at which point he will go back on his own air supply and we will then turn around. I go over how he should best position himself while on my octopus; usually recommending he position himself above my right shoulder and slightly behind me with his left hand resting on my tank valve to prevent me from dragging him along by the octopus in his mouth. This way we both get to extend our dive a little longer, we both get a chance to practice sharing air in a relaxed, non-emergency situation, and we are both left with enough air to deal with the rest of the dive and any difficulties we might encounter on assent or exit. I?ve found that trying to share air with someone on assent and exit is asking for trouble should conditions get rough on the surface, etc, especially if my buddy doesn?t have any air left in his tank as backup. Of course, all this necessitates that you are first confidant of your own skills and comfortable with someone breathing off your tank, etc. But I would repeat that it is much better for you to practice sharing air under controlled circumstances than in an emergency, so you will get comfortable with the concept and not view it as something only used in case of emergency.

I commend your attitude regarding wanting to inform the operator of the incident rather than spread harmful details behind his back. And as you said,

?it's a situation any of us could find ourselves in going with ANY op. If we avoid Shop X at all costs, don't we just have a false sense of security? Sure, the DM was unreliable, but since I did not talk to the dive op about him, is it fair for me to talk about the dive op to the world on SB? Because so many of people want to know their name, I realized it's my responsibility either to tell you or to tell the dive op about Gabriel, so they can deal with him, which is what I'm going to do. I truly do think they are a very good operation, so they do need to know about this guy's unsafe behavior. HOWEVER, any shop could have a DM that doesn't realize his depth gauge is broken and goes down and down and down. He's not an instructor; we all have our c-cards and shouldn't be relying on him anyway, right? The important thing to know is NOT to follow the DM blindly. ?

As Knives and @BAR said, you need to be confident in your own skills and able to rely on yourself, not your buddy or the DM, to deal with any situation. You also need to be assertive about not exceeding your training, skills and comfort level. As others mentioned, these are issues you need to talk with your buddy about before the dive; as in, whether you are willing to risk your own safety and stick with him if he is doing something stupid.

The question is, what would YOU do in that situation? Would you - or your buddy - follow him? Or would you dive your plan and stick together? If your buddy went, would you follow to "save" him/her? Or would you stay where you're supposed to be and deal with whatever falls out? When you're at 130' the brain seems to work slower, so it's good to know these things before you go. And good to know your buddy's answers, too, so you know what to expect from each other.

Several of your comments, regarding ?it?s a situation any of us could find ourselves in? combined with what you said about not knowing how to do deco stops, and your desire to learn decompression diving brings up another pet peeve. Encountering a situation where you exceed the recommended maximum no decompression limits IS something most divers will eventually encounter. Unfortunately, most dive training agencies emphasize no decompression diving so exclusively that when a diver does ?go into deco?, they are prepared to do only one thing: panic! Rather than train divers to be paranoid about what is sooner or later an inevitable situation, I really feel some basics regarding decompression dives should be part of any advanced level training. After all, shouldn?t the purpose of the training to be to help the diver be prepared for whatever situation he encounters, and how to properly execute the necessary skills with the comfort that comes with knowledge and training, rather than leave him to figure it out for himself at his own risk?

Which brings up one final point. It was good that you added a few minutes to your safety stop, but I would suggest it would have been better, knowing you HAD exceeded the no decompression dive limits, to add more like 10 minutes, since at this point you were NOT doing a safety stop, you were doing a decompression stop.

 

[gj62]

In my experience, it has been such a common experience for my buddies to consume air at a much faster rate than I, that I have developed a protocol to deal with the situation in a way that seems to work well for both me and my buddy. Before the dive, in the process of discussing our dive plan, we talk about what our turnaround point will be for the dive based on a mutually agreed on PSI level. I tell my buddy I will be checking with him periodically to ask his air level, and if when he reaches the ?turnaround? psi level, if I still have substantially more air, I will at that point offer to share my octopus with him so we can continue the dive until my air level is closer to the turnaround psi, at which point he will go back on his own air supply and we will then turn around.

Sounds risky. You've already said your buddy consumes air *much* faster than you, so unless you're turnaround point is extremely conservative, sharing air with your buddy to preserve his psi is not good gas management. OK, with no overhead and no chance for deco, this *might* be OK - but I would not suggest this as a normal course of action...