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SB (extended) weekend
- Thread starter OneBrightGator
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I have read the posts here on this thread and I have to ask those of you who received your training in overhead environments, mainly caves exactly when did you hear the statement "This is the exception to the rule". The main system here under attack is Peacock and perhaps Ginnie Devil's Ear. I read that Blue Grotto, Devils Den and Paradise Springs were also mentioned. Why is it we don't run lines at the latter mentioned sites. Lets look at this: O/W Cavern... an Odd statement, isn't it?
(1) Blue Grotto; Depth 100 ft with a novice rope running completely from surface dive platform and back to surface dive platform. Near the bottom one could almost classify this as a cave and not a cavern. It is considered a O/W cavern.
(2) Devils Den; 1 mile down the road from Blue Grotto max depth 55 ft, No lines ran. The perimeter has a few swim throughs. there are barricades preventing divers from squeezing where they should not go and a Grim Reaper sign and Stop signs marking the cave entrance. Doubles and knives are not allowed by any diver. Again a O/W cavern and lights OK
(3) Paradise Springs; Depth 110 ft before the cave to 140 ft. Cave marked by a Grim Reaper Sign. There is a Novice Rope from the O/W to the sign. Again knives not permitted but considered a O/W cavern lights OK
(4) Crystal River; Kings Springs Depth 55ft. A circular base cavern more of a swim through, no lines, any dive equipment configuration Ok, a O/W cavern.
(5) Ginnie Springs; The Ballroom depth 55 ft. a warning sign before you get to the waters edge, grated opening preventing entrance into the cave, A novice line inside the ballroom's entrance. O/W cavern they call this.
Now granted that Devils Den has no lines and they control the divers by limiting them to swimming only around the debris mound they have a good safety record as does Paradise and Blue Grotto Yet Crystal River has nothing and a diver dies. Yes he had no training to speak of for this environment. The little bit of control that the other sites have has made the difference I believe (IMO). Some think that Ginnie's Ballroom is also Ok for those without correct cavern or cave training. Yet I always run a line with a primary and secondary tie off here, why is that? It is because there ARE NO EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. Paradise and Blue Grotto have lines in the form of a rope, Devil's Den has barracades and you are still swimming on the debris mound no more than 10 feet to any OPEN WATER, (yes there is danger here). If you are of the belief that there are and can be exceptions to the rule than consider systems like Waynes World or Freidmans Sink. Each of these places and others like it do not require a primary line due to the nature of the already existing line and how it has been placed. There are lines here from out of the water running to the main line within the system. This is due to the nature of the current, darkness of the system, difficulties of access and exit. Yet none of these systems are exceptions to the rule when looking at accident analysis. The Devils Ear with the line so close to the opening, Peacock with the much debated gold line starting at the O/W mark has casued divers to become lazy and thus a danger to themselves. Complacency will cause a deteriation of skills. Poorly trained and unpractised skills are as effective as having never learned them in the first place. The time it takes to run the reel is of little impact on a trained diver's air time and penetration distance. If you are so lazy as to let your skills deteriate in an attempt to expediate your dive then you have not been mentored in the correct attitude for cave diving and you instructor has done you a disservice in letting you believe that there are exceptions to the rules. The gold lines at Ginnie and Peacock have been placed where they are with a reason. In Ginnie the gold line is placed to minimize the congestion of primary reels not to exclude them. Ginnie has two openings. In Peacock the lines were placed where they are with the mind set for cave conservation. Although the intent is good ( IMO errorness) the removing of gaps and extending the gold lines have set this system up for a hazard waiting to happen (IMO). Intro and cavern divers will now push further than their limits will comfort. I have seen a few times intro divers pushing air/gas limits attempting to clear deco obligations. The very system this conservation mentality is trying to protect has now opened it for far greater damage by those who have not developed the awarness and skills required of deeper penetration. I am fully in support of cave conservation, through education and development of diver technique and skills. One should note that correct cave or cavern training must include the correct attitude in regards to such goal setting without proper training or equipment. By the very first post of this thread I can see that the divers were not prepared properly and that they let the excitment of the coming dive fail them in their set up. There is no quarantee that the Gold Line itself would have been there upon the divers return. You make and accept your own level of risk BUT THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE
Just my two cents...........
(1) Blue Grotto; Depth 100 ft with a novice rope running completely from surface dive platform and back to surface dive platform. Near the bottom one could almost classify this as a cave and not a cavern. It is considered a O/W cavern.
(2) Devils Den; 1 mile down the road from Blue Grotto max depth 55 ft, No lines ran. The perimeter has a few swim throughs. there are barricades preventing divers from squeezing where they should not go and a Grim Reaper sign and Stop signs marking the cave entrance. Doubles and knives are not allowed by any diver. Again a O/W cavern and lights OK
(3) Paradise Springs; Depth 110 ft before the cave to 140 ft. Cave marked by a Grim Reaper Sign. There is a Novice Rope from the O/W to the sign. Again knives not permitted but considered a O/W cavern lights OK
(4) Crystal River; Kings Springs Depth 55ft. A circular base cavern more of a swim through, no lines, any dive equipment configuration Ok, a O/W cavern.
(5) Ginnie Springs; The Ballroom depth 55 ft. a warning sign before you get to the waters edge, grated opening preventing entrance into the cave, A novice line inside the ballroom's entrance. O/W cavern they call this.
Now granted that Devils Den has no lines and they control the divers by limiting them to swimming only around the debris mound they have a good safety record as does Paradise and Blue Grotto Yet Crystal River has nothing and a diver dies. Yes he had no training to speak of for this environment. The little bit of control that the other sites have has made the difference I believe (IMO). Some think that Ginnie's Ballroom is also Ok for those without correct cavern or cave training. Yet I always run a line with a primary and secondary tie off here, why is that? It is because there ARE NO EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. Paradise and Blue Grotto have lines in the form of a rope, Devil's Den has barracades and you are still swimming on the debris mound no more than 10 feet to any OPEN WATER, (yes there is danger here). If you are of the belief that there are and can be exceptions to the rule than consider systems like Waynes World or Freidmans Sink. Each of these places and others like it do not require a primary line due to the nature of the already existing line and how it has been placed. There are lines here from out of the water running to the main line within the system. This is due to the nature of the current, darkness of the system, difficulties of access and exit. Yet none of these systems are exceptions to the rule when looking at accident analysis. The Devils Ear with the line so close to the opening, Peacock with the much debated gold line starting at the O/W mark has casued divers to become lazy and thus a danger to themselves. Complacency will cause a deteriation of skills. Poorly trained and unpractised skills are as effective as having never learned them in the first place. The time it takes to run the reel is of little impact on a trained diver's air time and penetration distance. If you are so lazy as to let your skills deteriate in an attempt to expediate your dive then you have not been mentored in the correct attitude for cave diving and you instructor has done you a disservice in letting you believe that there are exceptions to the rules. The gold lines at Ginnie and Peacock have been placed where they are with a reason. In Ginnie the gold line is placed to minimize the congestion of primary reels not to exclude them. Ginnie has two openings. In Peacock the lines were placed where they are with the mind set for cave conservation. Although the intent is good ( IMO errorness) the removing of gaps and extending the gold lines have set this system up for a hazard waiting to happen (IMO). Intro and cavern divers will now push further than their limits will comfort. I have seen a few times intro divers pushing air/gas limits attempting to clear deco obligations. The very system this conservation mentality is trying to protect has now opened it for far greater damage by those who have not developed the awarness and skills required of deeper penetration. I am fully in support of cave conservation, through education and development of diver technique and skills. One should note that correct cave or cavern training must include the correct attitude in regards to such goal setting without proper training or equipment. By the very first post of this thread I can see that the divers were not prepared properly and that they let the excitment of the coming dive fail them in their set up. There is no quarantee that the Gold Line itself would have been there upon the divers return. You make and accept your own level of risk BUT THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE
Just my two cents...........
H2Andy
Contributor
"There is no quarantee that the Gold Line itself would have been there upon the divers return."
so you lay line continuously while in a cave, even if a mainline is present?
and what guarantee is there that YOUR line won't be removed
by whoever might have removed our main line?
so you lay line continuously while in a cave, even if a mainline is present?
and what guarantee is there that YOUR line won't be removed
by whoever might have removed our main line?
The Gold Line at Peacock was once removed and returned back to the original starting point. A dangerous mistake that was adjusted for by the running of a reel and the waiting for all known divers to clear the system. Protocol and the observation of it prevents the tampering of reels. Human error and failure to follow such protocol or limits of training is what gets people killed.
H2Andy
Contributor
gdi, i have no clue what you are saying.
but you don't answer my question:
if you are so concerned that someone might have removed the goldline by the time
we got back, what prevents that same someone from taking the line you so laboriously
laid?
please answer the question.
but you don't answer my question:
if you are so concerned that someone might have removed the goldline by the time
we got back, what prevents that same someone from taking the line you so laboriously
laid?
please answer the question.
The Peacock debate is a on going concern and is being addressed by the various agencies.
H2Andy
Contributor
that is not an answer to my question
Nothing would prevent them and thats why we learn lost exit line drills. Once you lay your line you are at the mercy of other divers, protocol and trainingH2Andy:
H2Andy
Contributor
exactly.
so i don't see what your post has to do with anything OBG and i did on our dive.
so i don't see what your post has to do with anything OBG and i did on our dive.
H2 Andy I respect your right to make your choices but as a cave instructor I must hold to true and tried practices and I must develop skills in my divers that will keep them alive. I am not opposed to changes in those practices should there be a better way. But even then there are no exceptions to the rules. Not in the bigger picture. One system such as Peacock should not dictate the policy for all systems or cause a breakdown in the habits of divers
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