Saw this at the quarry today

[PRL]

Gary is professional, he has more experiance that most of us here. Rescue diver training is a joke compared to the training he has to go through, and you wont find any references in rescue diver manual to his job. I for one would want him to help me when I need help.

Couldn't find the page in the Rescue manual where it tells you to let someone "pass out" before you help them. Which one are you using, is it the CYOA manual?

In the Rescue manual "!" used, it was the Rescuer's "safety" that came first. If you were in danger of being "physically hurt" you were not to attempt a rescue.

"If they drown, they drown"??? Sure hope there's someone besides you around if anyone needs help.

 

[Rick Inman]

Sure hope there's someone besides you around if anyone needs help.

Gary,
I supposed, as a law enforcement agent who has made a life of serving and saving the people, this is not the first time someone has said something like this to you. If it was me, or my wife, or one of my children or grandchildren in the water, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY want you to be the one to rescue them. I hope you know that most people don't feel the way this poster does, and I know you have saved the lives of more people than this posted probably has dives.
Thank you for your service!
Rick

 

[gfisher4792]

Couldn't find the page in the Rescue manual where it tells you to let someone "pass out" before you help them. Which one are you using, is it the CYOA manual?

In the Rescue manual "!" used, it was the Rescuer's "safety" that came first. If you were in danger of being "physically hurt" you were not to attempt a rescue.

"If they drown, they drown"??? Sure hope there's someone besides you around if anyone needs help.

I find this very analogous to helping a choking person in a restaurant. If you ask them if they need help, and they shake their head "no" or refuse, there's not a damn thing you can legally do. That is, until they pass out, at which point a call for help is assumed and you can help them.

I'm not rescue certified yet, but all my lifeguarding training has had me push away a struggling/adenalized victim when you attempt to help them. If I'm trying to help you, and you're panicking, trying to climb all over me and are pushing me underwater, you're damn right I'm going to be looking out for myself first.

 

[divenut2001]

Gary,
I supposed, as a law enforcement agent who has made a life of serving and saving the people, this is not the first time someone has said something like this to you. If it was me, or my wife, or one of my children or grandchildren in the water, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY want you to be the one to rescue them. I hope you know that most people don't feel the way this poster does, and I know you have saved the lives of more people than this posted probably has dives.
Thank you for your service!
Rick

C'mon guys,

I'm "not" questioning Gary's "ability" at all, just his "willingness". I'm quite familiar with Gary's "very impressive" background which makes his comments all the more disturbing. Actually, I was shocked that someone in his profession with that kind of experience and training would let someone drown because they refused help and really needed it. I guess I feel that it's more important to save a life than worry about getting sued for my troubles. It just reflects the society we live in today where we have so many sue happy people. ie...Here, sign this waiver so we can do the surgery that's necessary for you to keep living.

Rescue course a joke? I don't think so. Ask someone who has been saved by a Rescue trained person and see if they think it's a joke. They will certainly disagree. It won't come close at all to the training a pro goes thru but it's still effective.

 

[SquattingRadishDM]

PRL Wrote: "Rescue diver training is a joke compared to the training he has to go through, and you wont find any references in rescue diver manual to his job."

Divenut2001 wrote: "Rescue course a joke?"

I think what PRL meant was that the Rescue Diver course is all well and good for training your average diver to be more safe and looking after others. But dont go thinking that it is the be all and end all of rescue training. As someone who has made countless minor rescues (Many OOA's, paniced diver bolts to surface (my sister!), Free flow regs etc). It still doesnt come close to the mass searches, body recoveries, drowned people etc that Law Enforcement or Professional Rescuers have to do.

The PADI courses do tend to be the pre-packaged, anyone can pass the course type of thing. And while Rescue diver or DMs are competent rescues in an emergency, just dont have the skills and experience that someone like Gary would have.

Divenut2001 wrote: "I'm "not" questioning Gary's "ability" at all, just his "willingness"."

Have you read Gary's profile? You dont go through that amount of training if your not "Willing" to help some1 in distress.

Apologies Divenut2001 if this is all taken out of context. Flame away.

-Jack

 

[divenut2001]

PRL Wrote: "Rescue diver training is a joke compared to the training he has to go through, and you wont find any references in rescue diver manual to his job."

Divenut2001 wrote: "Rescue course a joke?"

I think what PRL meant was that the Rescue Diver course is all well and good for training your average diver to be more safe and looking after others. But dont go thinking that it is the be all and end all of rescue training. As someone who has made countless minor rescues (Many OOA's, paniced diver bolts to surface (my sister!), Free flow regs etc). It still doesnt come close to the mass searches, body recoveries, drowned people etc that Law Enforcement or Professional Rescuers have to do.

The PADI courses do tend to be the pre-packaged, anyone can pass the course type of thing. And while Rescue diver or DMs are competent rescues in an emergency, just dont have the skills and experience that someone like Gary would have.

Divenut2001 wrote: "I'm "not" questioning Gary's "ability" at all, just his "willingness"."

Have you read Gary's profile? You dont go through that amount of training if your not "Willing" to help some1 in distress.

Apologies Divenut2001 if this is all taken out of context. Flame away.

-Jack

No appologies necesary Jack,

Yes I have read Gary's bio and like I said "it's VERY impressive", it really is. I understand a diver "rescue" course is nothing in comparison to the level of training you would receive as a professional.

I meant no disrespect to Gary at all, but it bothers me that he can so calmly say that he would let someone "die" who needed help but refused it just so he won't get sued. Maybe he or some of his coleages have had some bad experiences with getting sued for their efforts I don't know. If so then things need to be changed so that the "right" thing can be done without reprecutions.

 

[Gary D.]

C'mon guys,

I'm "not" questioning Gary's "ability" at all, just his "willingness". I'm quite familiar with Gary's "very impressive" background which makes his comments all the more disturbing. Actually, I was shocked that someone in his profession with that kind of experience and training would let someone drown because they refused help and really needed it. I guess I feel that it's more important to save a life than worry about getting sued for my troubles. It just reflects the society we live in today where we have so many sue happy people. ie...Here, sign this waiver so we can do the surgery that's necessary for you to keep living.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Let’s clarify this a little.

I WILL NOT let someone drown, period. I don’t think you can find someone more willing than me to get the job done. BUT there are a lot of safety and legal issues that need to be taught to a rescuer not just rescue techniques.

What I was trying to say is the word NEVER is not the best choice of words. There might and have been times a person in dire need refuses help from rescuers either civilian or professional.

Those that feel they will take action anyway because THEY feel the person in trouble wants help need to wake up. Acting too soon can find you not only liable civilly but criminally as well.

In my business it happens quite often. So we sit back and wait. The second they pass out we jump in and save them because now it goes to implied consent.

Lets look at it from another angle. A person is having trouble and refusing help. You jump in and attempt a rescue that fails and the person dies as a result. That person was awake and moving when you attempted the rescue and now they’re dead. A sharp attorney just might get a conviction for some type of wrongful death against you, which could result in some severe jail time. From what I've hrard diving with Bubba isn't fun. Then the civil actions start and they never seem to end once they take hold.

The PSD’s, LEO’s, Firemen and other rescue-trained personnel in this country did not create this litigation-based world. The general public, which we are serving did and guess what, mostly against us.

So those of you that think we, or in this case ME, are unwilling to do a rescue are totally wrong. We have rules to play by which MUST be adhered to if we are to continue doing this job. These rules also apply to civilian rescuers but are SLIGHTLY more forgiving. If someone says NO, they mean NO even if you’re thinking yes.

If we do have to wait for someone to pass out first I will be the first one there to save his or her butt. And I’ll be right back in service to do it all again simply because I played by the rules and stay ready 24-7.

The OLD SCHOOL training was that if you came across a struggling person in the water just haul off and smack them into submission. Today you need to wait.

I do wish I had 30 years of diving under my belt like was suggested earlier. That would mean I could repeat the past 12 or 13 years I have had past that number and still go a lot longer doing what I do.

To most of you thanks for the encouragement and support.

Gary D.

PS: I don’t think anyone referred to Rescue Diver as a joke. Trying to do PSD work, as a rescue diver is way lacking in all areas. Other than that everyone should take it.

 

[PRL]

WOW

PS: I don't think by saying "If he drowns, he drowns" Gary ment anything other than if the rescue fails than don't beat your self over it for the rest of your life (I think Gary calls it his safety valve)
Its good advice to everybody thats involved in a rescue

Sideband, I still recomend you enroll in a rescue course
still think you did good
and now recomend you get yourself one of those safety valves and stop second guessing your self or you will burn out

 

[voop]

Not replying to anyone in particular here.....

Y'know.....Gary is no use to anyone if he during a rescue attempt gets turned into a victim himself. Hence priority no. one for the sake of all of us must be that the Gary's of the world do all they can to avoid becomming victims. Also, Gary is of no use to anyone if he gets sued by a diver who downright refuses help, and has to spend the rest of his lifetime fighting in the courts rather than be out there picking our kids, spouses and friends out of dangerous situations. Hence, priority no, two, again for the sake of all of us, must be that the Gary's of the world stay out of court.

I do not feel that it is my place to second-guess the decissions of a seasoned and highly skilled professional who -- daily -- puts his own rear on the line for the good of society. He's got to make tuff calls on a regular basis, which most of us never are faced with. Gary shared the background for the way he would act previously in this thread, and while I agree that it might be "harsh", I understand the reasoning behind as he gave it.

Me, what do I know? My outlook on the world is from the comfy seat in my leather-clad office chair, and the tuffest choises I'm faced with are if I should have expresso or latte for my afternoon break. I can get away with that -- we all can get away with that -- because there're people like Gary who make the really tuff choises.

Gary, THANKS to you and yours.

 

[wolf eel]

[

What I was trying to say is the word NEVER is not the best choice of words. There might and have been times a person in dire need refuses help from rescuers either civilian or professional.]

[Those that feel they will take action anyway because THEY feel the person in trouble wants help need to wake up. Acting too soon can find you not only liable civilly but criminally as well.]

First Divenut was not saying you are the bad guy. Or you do not know what you are talking about. Your way of going about it I still feel is the bad guy approach. I have NEVER stated that I felt that Sideband should have leaped on in. I also have NEVER said anything about taking a holed of this guy. Or to rescue this guy. I did however say to stay with him even if that is within ten feet and so on.


The context was blowen out of proprotion to say the least. I will agree Never may have been a bad choice so was let him drown and so forth. that was not a tit for tat.


As for rescue course being a joke only if your instructor is. anybody who says so would fail mine.

As for being there to help out Garys training it is for a different application and most of the time a rescue of a diver is done by his peers recover is by the sheriff. Most diving related accidents do not wait for a rescue trained officer to save them. Thats what a rescue course is all about. For those who feel their course was a joke if a real emerge happens stay out of the way please.


I never said anybody who say's no thanks is wrong. BUT in this case I feel he was. (most people deny they are in trouble)It just happened here and he would have been alive had nobody listen and went with how they felt plain and simple. (I was not there) And again I did not say screw you buddy I am going to save you look out her comes my pocket mask either. all I was saying was the approach from the instructor given how it was told was wrong. And the diver required more attention then the presumed amount.

Cheers
foaming at the mouth