Saw this at the quarry today

[Gary D.]

I agree with everybody who said you should have stayed around. I am still confused with how you where helping a class. That is what a DM is for. Your instructor should have told you or somebody else to go and get the dive buddy as you will find your dive buddy will often dive along thinking all is good. His or her dive buddy should have helped out his/her partner. It would have been much better as the frantic divers knows the other diver and would have gladly communicated with that person over everybody else.

I have to ask how can you be a "PRO" helper without training. That is what the training does it gives you the foundations to be "PRO help" If in your case there are multi people in the water stay with the confussed diver and direct others to get the buddy to be aware of what is going on. Then decide if the buddy is compatent to help if not then take control of the situation leaving them to there own is as bad as the buddy face down with out a clue. That situation could have become extremly bad. I am very glad you did something but you also could have been put into a very bad place just being in the water with out any real training. With a O/W class you may have had a paniced diver and with out training you both would have been in trouble. I do not mean this in a bad way to you but your instructor is in the same place as the buddy for the other diver in your own words " should have been slapped" well same goes for an instructor that has O/W tickets helping in no viss situations. Both should have been slapped. You have no right being in the water with new divers. I know all kinds of people will not agree but the trianing you get is what keeps you alive. Take the course and learn when to help and when not to. And what to do. And please do not let people pass out if it can be avoided we are not the bad guys. Communication is everything start to talk with the person take control and never let them pass out as they may drown for NO reason. In courses you may take in the future you will be taught how to deal with a paniced diver (not a bad guy or scumb bag or anything like that) just a diver. Never make a paniced diver swim around your boat Never let somebody hypox out if you can help it never ever let somebody drown because you are afraid they may bring you down that is the point of a rescue diver is to rescue not recover. (that last bit was not for you) never be a coward take the training so you can save somebodys sorry ass as it could be your sorry ass in trouble because of tech problems and the last thing you want is to hypox out then pass out then sink in a hole nobody can see you.
Cheers
Derek

In a perfect world NEVER is a good word that can be used a lot. In the real world it isn't such a good word.

If instructors were to pound NEVER do this or that as far as paniced people in the water go we would have a lot more victims.

What I was trying to get across is that unless you know you can handle the problem sit back a bit and let it calm down to where you can handle it.

Where do you think the rescuer is going to be if the paniced person gets control of them and their gear. Not in good shape at all.

A paniced person is pumping a lot of adreanalin and just might have the power of a freight train. The rescuer won't.

Get into the ring with a professional heavy weight boxer and see how long you last. Don't you think chances would be better if the boxer got totally exhausted first? Same thing in the water. Your not waiting for the person to drown just lose the fight.

Just like other topics on the boards, an example of every possible problem and solutition can't be given even if it were possible.

Several years ago I pulled a pre-teen off some rocks and tried to swim him back to shore. We talked it over, got him into a PFD and slipped ointo the water. He was fine up until the point his feet left the bottom. I had a wild cat on my hands and all I could do was shove him away. That little kid was going to drown me if he got the chance. So NEVER let go, I don't think so. Coward No, Saving MY bacon, yes as well as his eventually.

Hind site is 20/20 and next time, if there is one, the kid will be drug across on a line. He went from a totally calm cooperative, smiling kid, that had everything we were going to do explained to him, into a raging wild cat in an instant.

Never, Harsh word that needs some leighway.

Only do what you feel you CAN do as safely as possible. Do start stacking up the victims.

Gary D.

 

[mogwai]

In a perfect world NEVER is a good word that can be used a lot. In the real world it isn't such a good word.

If instructors were to pound NEVER do this or that as far as paniced people in the water go we would have a lot more victims.

What I was trying to get across is that unless you know you can handle the problem sit back a bit and let it calm down to where you can handle it.

Where do you think the rescuer is going to be if the paniced person gets control of them and their gear. Not in good shape at all.

A paniced person is pumping a lot of adreanalin and just might have the power of a freight train. The rescuer won't.

Get into the ring with a professional heavy weight boxer and see how long you last. Don't you think chances would be better if the boxer got totally exhausted first? Same thing in the water. Your not waiting for the person to drown just lose the fight.

Just like other topics on the boards, an example of every possible problem and solutition can't be given even if it were possible.

Several years ago I pulled a pre-teen off some rocks and tried to swim him back to shore. We talked it over, got him into a PFD and slipped ointo the water. He was fine up until the point his feet left the bottom. I had a wild cat on my hands and all I could do was shove him away. That little kid was going to drown me if he got the chance. So NEVER let go, I don't think so. Coward No, Saving MY bacon, yes as well as his eventually.

Hind site is 20/20 and next time, if there is one, the kid will be drug across on a line. He went from a totally calm cooperative, smiling kid, that had everything we were going to do explained to him, into a raging wild cat in an instant.

Never, Harsh word that needs some leighway.

Only do what you feel you CAN do as safely as possible. Do start stacking up the victims.

Gary D.

Am working through my rescue at the moment and agree with afore mentioned posts. You need training before getting involved in situations. My rescue training has made me look entireley differently at my diving, and for the better. It adds a whole new dimension to your thinking, pre, during and post dive and i find it an amazingly different experience using what i am learning. And i have still to complete the course. All the same what i have learned up to now is very relevant to what i am doing. With it comes more responsibility, but not just that, more a case of being responsible for yourself and those around you. It wakens up your mind, thought i knew a bit before hand but realising i had a large gap in my knowledge that is being well filled is a nice thought.

 

[wolf eel]

First I said never because there are many different ways to deal with people out of control. Second you had mentioned that you had a kid go out of control that may be true but I know nothing of what happened that day but how much time did you take with the kid prior to getting into the water ?. my point was only to train nothing is better then a trained diver for response. I had a great big return but no point. As a diver now for the last 30yrs I still feel at all cost we should try to save others in need. When you have finnished your course and have about another 13000 dives then lets talk my poop is dialed not just for myself but others around me. Also you say you have learned how to be responsible to others then you should question why a O/W is in murky water with first time'ers ever being in water. Never is allways going to be my response and hell if you take me down then at least at the end of the game my family can say he tried good enough for them good enough for me. If you have to recover one you might as well recover two same bottom time and we are going to be together so what the hay. have fun
Derek

 

[divenut2001]

Give me a break, there is no such thing as a "professional buddy" (unless Naui has a cert level of that catagory). According to the cert level you listed on your bio you're only OW cert, and by the looks of it, you're a pretty new diver yourself, ie.. your first night dive...

You definitely need to be at least "Rescue" trained and be a DM candidate "before" you assist with classes. Had you gotten too close to that near paniced diver or had one of those new divers you were leading panic or have an underwater emergency, you would have gotten a lot more than you bargained for.

Your heart is in the right place though. Just get the proper training first, before you, someone else or both get hurt or worse. Good luck Joe.

 

[wolf eel]

After reading my own reply it was in haste as my wife needed me to respond and as a good responder I jumped !.

After reading Gary D's I have to agree with him fully. And I am sorry if I ruffeled his feathers. Because he is right.

I have trained and trained to me I am going to try and again waiting for the other diver to slow down is true. I am allways training for the dumb ass that has been given his ticket even though he was barley able to put his mask on. That is not his fault but his trainers. All I ment was it is not good to allow them to pass out. Then you are now dealing with all kinds of new problems that can become just as bad as a paniced diver out of control. They wake up in a panic state half way to the shore or boat puts you into harms way as you are not prepared for this person all a sudden freaking out. A chin pull would only cause greif. My point was truly to the instuctor because he did not do what he could have. In my opinon he did nothing. He should have reconized how bad the other diver was by floating away even though he was gasping for air. I do not mean to be harsh but that is what happened. Everybody who is just taking course's knows all the answers and in the perfect world that would be great but we do not live in one and that is why we do not allways follow the book. The book gives you the ability to learn and practise but it ends there sometimes you have to draw your own line and that comes with years of doing it. I am still at awe about the fact that nobody has responded to the fact that a O/W was with all kinds of death traps (new divers) and that was all OK the diver freaking at the surface is nothing compard to a diver having a fit at twenty or so feet in water you can barley see your nose through. That was more of a concern for me and the way the instructor responded to the other diver. I ment nothing towards anybody as in the coward statement ( that is how I view life) but there is no point in learning how to help if all you do is stand back and wait for it to be a calm situation as that in it's self means trouble. Do only as you can and if all you can do is wait it out then do just that but Talk to the person and stay with him/her even if stay with him/her is within ten feet be there calm them down just being there is a very good way to help to calm them down. Tell them you have been there and know what it's like start a conversation. Letting somebody who had just had all kinds of trouble getting air and has been near panic to leave the water on there own is looking for trouble. They could still pass out and at worst still have a heart problem and still may require CPR and time is of the essence as you have no idea as to why they are having a hard time breathing. I beleive all is lucky that it ended the way it did.

I should only read as I may give bad ideas to those who may not fully understand what the out come could be.

For me train, train, train. That way all around is going to be safer. No I am not DIR

Cheers
Derek

 

[Sideband]

I am still at awe about the fact that nobody has responded to the fact that a O/W was with all kinds of death traps (new divers) and that was all OK the diver freaking at the surface is nothing compard to a diver having a fit at twenty or so feet in water you can barley see your nose through.

Cheers
Derek

So I make a worse dive buddy for a new diver than someone else that has never dived? You are reading FAR too much into what I said. My responsibilities in the water are no more than those of the uncertified diver I am buddied with. In fact, as the skills and such are being done, I also do them just like a member of the class. The difference being that I do them better because of constant practice. Even on personal dives with my regular buddy I have an agreement that the first thing I do on the first dive is perform each of the basic skill once before we go where ever we are going, but that is getting off track. If it had been one of the students having a problem at depth then the DM, AI or in this case instructor that was with us would have taken care of it. It would have been their responsibility and not mine. No different than if it had been 4 uncertified divers instead of 3 that was being lead on that dive.

I just happened to be the one that noticed the guy with the problem. I was not tasked to do anything about it. The guy with the problem was a certified diver and not a member of ours or anyone elses class. At no time did I place myself or anyone else in danger. I suppose it would have been better had I not been there at all to at least bring it to someones attention?

Joe

 

[PRL]

I think that the "Professional extra dive buddy" was a joke made by Sideband. Like Rick pointed out, this guy has the Bug, and will probably be a very gifted instructor when the time comes.
As for the incident, I think that you did good. You recognized a problem and alerted a diver that is more qualified than you to handle the situation, at this point the best thing you can do is assist the more qualified diver (not exect words, but taken out of Rescue Diver Handbook).
I think that with your state of mind it is time to finish Rescue Diver and start your DM training, you should be getting credit for the stuff you do.

 

[Charlie99]

So I make a worse dive buddy for a new diver than someone else that has never dived?

I just happened to be the one that noticed the guy with the problem. I was not tasked to do anything about it. The guy with the problem was a certified diver and not a member of ours or anyone elses class. At no time did I place myself or anyone else in danger. I suppose it would have been better had I not been there at all to at least bring it to someones attention?

Chill out dude! You did good. You had good awareness of the divers around you. You responded appropriately. No coherent poster has criticized you.

Several have criticized the instructor for not staying with a guy in trouble. Some have suggested that it would be a good idea for you to take the Rescue course (I'll 2nd that idea). And you have one incoherent poster that might be criticizing you, or might just be foaming at the mouth in general.

 

[Sideband]

Give me a break, there is no such thing as a "professional buddy" (unless Naui has a cert level of that catagory). According to the cert level you listed on your bio you're only OW cert, and by the looks of it, you're a pretty new diver yourself, ie.. your first night dive...

You definitely need to be at least "Rescue" trained and be a DM candidate "before" you assist with classes. Had you gotten too close to that near paniced diver or had one of those new divers you were leading panic or have an underwater emergency, you would have gotten a lot more than you bargained for.

Your heart is in the right place though. Just get the proper training first, before you, someone else or both get hurt or worse. Good luck Joe.

I know there is no pro buddy cert.. That's why I put it in quotes. The classes almost always seem to be an odd number of people. I get to go out for free and make it even. Like I just tried to explain to Wolf Eel, in the water I have no real responsibilities beyond being a dive buddy and am under the same supervision that the students are and have the same responsibilities. Mostly, breath and stay with your buddy. There was an instructor about 3 feet above the 4 of us the entire dive. The other group had the same situation but the guy tasked with the "lead" was a class member. The entire dive involved following a rope to a piece of machinery, checking pressures and returning to the platform by following the rope the other way. 2 of our guys just got confused and surfaced instead of turning around which caused the others to do the same.
I don't get to, and know I'm not ready to, truely lead a group. The instructors make that clear to the students and those that still come to me with questions get referred to the instructor without fail. On land I'm a gofer. I go out because I get to dive for free, really get to reinforce my skills and it is fun.

If I made it sound like I was doing more in my original post then I apologize. It was very late and I had been at the quarry for 13 hours followed by an hour and a half drive home.

 

[wolf eel]

Foaming at the mouth not likely.

You should take the advanced course before you take the rescue course.

First YOU said you are a Dive Buddy PRO I am sorry for reading into what you said. But in diving you have all kinds of dudes that do not have a clue. Even instructors and DM's. As for the other comments they did not read what your cert level is. Because if they had they would realize that you have only dove in one place. You responded to be a dive buddy PRO that would give a novice the idea if they are in trouble you would be there to assit. Because you are a dive buddy PRO. Again I was only truly worried about the other diver. Yes I think you would become a great person to take on the Advance course then after many dives and problems that come along then maybe you should take the rescue course. Sorry for taking the PRO dive buddy out of contents but your statment about the slap part is what really drew my attention. Where do you get off saying that maybe they where just training. Because what YOU said was what I thought was what happened. That being said I have never shot my mouth off about you but I did about the instructor. As the DM that read this he?she failed to look at what you have for expeirence.
Cheers
foaming at the mouth.