San Diego accident

[DandyDon]

Sorry if you did not like the truth as I see it, but I do not see any way to teach prospective divers how to handle a panic inducing situation without specific training on how to handle a massive task overload.

I am not a diving genius, not even a DM or instructor, but to my untrained mind an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I apologize for adding to this thread and will shut up now........

MD is right on above. I agree in principle, just not in hope...

Assuming that the diver that wasn't OOA was low on air how would you guys have approached the situation? Done a controlled ascent air sharing as long as the tank lasted and then do a controlled emergency ascent exhaling all the way?

Edit: For novice divers like myself, it would be EXTREMELY helpful to hear how you guys would approach the problem instead of the passive aggressiveness going on here.

Haha, with Oside Jimc's idea in mind, I wouldn't authorize them air fills without a DM supervising, but that's my narrow opinion. I guess you hit the best idea, or the rapid ascent they seeming did to make it on air - or maybe they did what you suggested. You really never know until you have to. Of the times I have donated air, a few of the LOA divers were excited enough that we started sucking my back gas down a little rapidly for comfort so I switched to my pony. That's what it's there for, in case of such need. Every time I have donated to a LOA diver, we saved his last 500 in his own tank so he could use it on surface, often the most dangerous time, to inflate BC and breathe from even if waves pushed us apart. OOA is a more serious setting, not only for ascent, but also for the dangerous surface situation where the OOA diver has to hold onto the donor in waves, while he orally inflates, and/or breathe surface air in spite of waves. Too many divers drown on the surface or fail to drop weights and sink. Have you dropped weights since OW? It's a simple skill my bud & I do drill on.

As another suggested, don't let it happen; monitor you bud's air too; but it can happen and you'll know then how good you are at survive and save.

And then there's my biggest screw-up on record, reflected by another member's Sig here: ""Even a whole SCUBA shop full of gear won't make up for a series of bad decisions." (Web Monkey)" But I won't go into that one. :blush:

 

[mr.rongilbert]

Hopefully the divers will be good to go without any long term effects other than a healthier respect for how dangerous our sport can be. Hats off to the folks who responded!

I have a buddy that is hands down the the most knowledgeable diver that I know. I really enjoy picking his brain and have not been able to due to bieng too busy (poor excuse) He is older and could care less about the internet or email or just about anything besides diving, reading books and drinkng Dr. Pepper. I tell him about some of the "debates" and "latest thing" that gets posted on the board. Yesterday we discussed dive training and accidents and how we have managed to do what we do without Ralph the Scuba God, Darwin and Mr. Murphy (my personal dive buddies) making examples out of us. The bottom line is that scuba diving, like driving or flying or whatever - is dangerous - and just because we are given a c-card doesnt mean that we are good to go - it means that we passed a set of standards either written, practical demonstration or both - the rest is up to us. I am a much safer diver now than I was ten or twenty years ago not because of my dive instructors but because I try to educate myself - build redundancy in my systems, obey the rule of thirds and have a tremendously healthy respect for mother nature and my personal limitations. I have done some boneheaded things but would never knowingly place my buddy in a situation where he/she would have to come to my aid because I ran out of air due to inattention or going beyond the rules. I remember when I was 18 and decided that I was going to buy a motorcycle my dad took me to the DL office where I went through the motions to get a license when I was done "demonstrating" I thought that I did pretty good (I didnt crash) I hopped off the bike and I have never forgotten what the trooper told me: "You have no business on a motorcycle and you will probly get yourself killed. Knowing that you are going to ride this thing anyway I am going to go ahead and give you your "M" endorsement" he told me that I had better find somewhere to practice and that it would be up to me to prove him wrong he looked at my dad and said that he better make sure I did. At the time I thought he was nuts but it seems like a pretty good lesson almost 20 years later....

I would like to understand what happened to the diver(s) - if it was "classic" or if there was a problem at depth that caused the OOA.... hopefully the details will be shared by them or someone who knows them - at least so folks can read and learn from it and hopefully avoid a similar situation.

Dive safe!

 

[Ayisha]

I know I have to have enough for myself to reach the top and get help. Risking my last drop of air isn't an option. Now if for some reason I was to go OOA and I was on my own - I have other options for myself.

Missdirected, think about how that policy of saving only enough gas for yourself to reach the surface affects your buddy and you if that's all either of you reserve. If you were to have a sudden loss of gas, your buddy would not have enough to get you safely to the surface either.

Each buddy should really reserve enough gas to bring both buddies to the surface safely while completing any necessary stops.

 

[nereas]

OOA with Deco obligation? A 75 air share shouldn't send both in...?

On an NDL dive, a rapid ascent from a deep depth will give you a DCS risk. Deep here having the meaning of anything more than 30 ft.

Nobody said anything about a deco dive. Where did you get that???

Do you remember the rule about 30 ft per minute? This superseded the former rule of 60 ft per minute.

 

[nereas]

TC -- Assume you are at 75 feet, and have initiated an air share. Now what's important? You need to execute an ascent; nothing else is reasonable at this point. How do you get out of this situation unhurt? By controlling your ascent so that the ascent itself doesn't hurt you.

If you don't do that, one of three things happened -- Either you didn't have the gas to do a controlled ascent while air sharing (which I suspect, as, if one diver was out of gas, it's likely the other was low). Or you didn't have the diving skills to control an ascent while air-sharing, and lost control and surfaced too fast -- This is also sadly likely, as almost no one practices this kind of thing once they are out of class. Or the third, and worst possibility is that, having had an OOA emergency, at least one diver lost emotional control and bolted for the surface, dragging his companion with him.

All three are evidence of poor training or poor practice, or both. There is NO excuse for anyone to get hurt from an out of air. Being out of gas should never happen, except as the result of an unforseeable equipment failure. But once you are out of gas, the simple solution is to go to your buddy. An attentive and well schooled buddy will immediately remedy the situation, and then, as Diver0001 (one of my favorite, and alas these days largely absent SB members) once said to me, the emergency is OVER. At that point, you have an inconvenience, and you deal with it calmly.

The problem is that few divers practice these scenarios. If you get out of OW and go do 300 dives and everything goes really well, then the day something doesn't, you will find out how well you cope with the unexpected. Not everyone does well when tested, and if you're lucky, you won't get hurt. My personal opinion is that practice is the cheaper alternative.

Who knows, TSM?

Maybe one of them had an SPG failure combined with a heavier breathing rate?

Maybe they were photographers and not paying attention to their SPGs?

Maybe they were spearfishermen and got fixated on their quarry?

The FACT that they both ran OOA means that neither were apparently paying attention to their SPGs. And also that they were not holding to a very good reserve.

I am always curious about training agency, certification level, and number of dives logged, whenever there is an incident like this.

75 ft is not a deep dive, but deep enough so that you need to pay attention to your SPG and your buddy's SPG also.

I hope they were both OK after the hyperbaric treatment.

 

[DandyDon]

The FACT that they both ran OOA means that neither were apparently paying attention to their SPGs.

We do not know that at all. It may have been very different...

 

[nereas]

We do not know that at all. It may have been very different...

You been smokin that nasty Texas weed again?

We KNOW they both ran OOA.

 

[Oside Jimc]

After reflection and a chat with Don I want to let everybody know everything what I know, but more clearly articulated:

Here's the deal, I have a close friend that was an EFR on this accident, he was not a diver and wanted to learn from me so we had a (probably ill advised) discussion about the accident. He had interviewed the female diver so I know that I had a reliable account of this near tragidy.

The root cause of this is obviously a poorly trained diver that swam happliy along until he was licking aluminum from his tank, he then went crazy and did his best to violate every rule in the book for a LOA/OOA ascent (Other than taking her octo). After getting her octo he grabbed her in a death grip and swam up as fast as he could for the surface, she realized that she was being overpowered and focused on her survival by making as sure as possible that she was exhaling as she ascended. Once on the surface he fainted (Thank-god IMO), she saved his life by ditching weights, orally inflating his BC, and holding his head out of the water (she had plenty of air for both to do a normal ascent), but the lifeguards were called and both divers got a chamber ride as a precaution, but there was no deco obligation. So as I see it the problems here relate to poor training + panic. I guess I was quite fortunate to get trained by a genuine dive nazi, but it has served me well over the years.

 

[Oside Jimc]

We KNOW they both ran OOA.

Not true, only 1 did.

 

[Missdirected]

Missdirected, think about how that policy of saving only enough gas for yourself to reach the surface affects your buddy and you if that's all either of you reserve. If you were to have a sudden loss of gas, your buddy would not have enough to get you safely to the surface either.

Each buddy should really reserve enough gas to bring both buddies to the surface safely while completing any necessary stops.

Woah, woah, woah, he posed a hypothetical question asking what would you do if you found yourself in that spot (low on air with OOA buddy). Please read the whole post and what I was responding to. No where did I advocate setting a policy of saving only enough gas for yourself to reach the top when you go diving. Personally, I'm certainly not going to plan on getting that low in the first place!!!!!!! Again, he asked what would happen if you did find yourself in that situation, for whatever reason, and what would you do.