Safe Second Inflators vs Octopus Regs

[PaulChristenson]

I suspect there was some miscommunication or misunderstanding. http://www.divealert.com/divealert.html clearly shows that they have 3 versions, including one specifically designed for ScubaPro Air 2.

Well if they've got it on their website...then disregard what I was told...obviously they must believe in it...

 

[loosebits]

I suspect there was some miscommunication or misunderstanding. http://www.divealert.com/divealert.html clearly shows that they have 3 versions, including one specifically designed for ScubaPro Air 2.

That simply means it will fit on the different sized fittings for these intergrated secondaries. The LP hose for a regular inflator is far more restricted than the LP hose for a 2nd stage (or the LP hose for an integrated inflator/2nd stage). The issue is not if the dive alert will fit, it is if the dive aleart allows enough air to pass through it to keep up with the demand of a 2nd stage.

Surely to save on manufacturing costs, there is only 1 dive alert with different connectors for different inflators. I imagine the first dive alert only worked with std lp inflators then Air2's and stuff started coming out. Did they simply manufacture new connectors to fit the Air2's or did they completely redesign the whole system so that enough air could pass through to handle the higher demand.

I wouldn't want to bet my life on it unless I had personally tried it.

Completely off topic but I was in Cozumel last year diving my standard singles rig (bp/wing, 7' primary, bungied secondary). A couple of newbies came up to me and my similarly outfitted buddy as asked us if we just got certified. Our response was "huh??". They said well why don't you use a integrated inflator/secondary. We laughed.

 

[bmaber]

I don't use that model "Air 2" but I have a Genesis Sidekick Octopus and it breaths the same way. I have played around with it while breathing from it and pushing BC inflator buttons and I can control my buoyancy while breathing fine and there are some important advantages. One it is more streamlined, but more important it is always where I expect it to be.

I only know one diver who needed the use of another diver Octopus ASAP/life and death and he almost died because of a mistake made with a regular octo. It was cold water wreck dive to 120 feet off the coast of BC. The wreck was a war ship specifically cleaned and modified with safety swim-out holes for SCUBA diving. He got separated from the group due to silt in the wreck interior. He ran low on air and could not find his buddy, so he got out of the wreck and went up to the main deck of the wreck where the less experienced divers were. He could only reach one diver, he signaled out of air to her and she went for her Octo, she was amazed to find it was gone! The diver then gave up, filled his BC and kicked for the surface. The group found him unconscious at the surface, not breathing and nearly dead. CPR brought him back and then helicopter rescue into the big city for a long hyperbaric chamber trip. So where did her Octo go? As it turned out she had accidentally trapped it between her back and her BC, so it was behind her under the BC. That just can’t happen on my rig.

The only exception is for instructors, they need to use the octo all the time.

BTW my brother is a PADI MSDT and he hates my Genesis Sidekick, he even tells his classes I am nuts. So it is a matter of opinion. Still the more I dive with it the more I like the Sidekick – I would not dive with a traditional octo again.

 

[wmspdi]

He could only reach one diver, he signaled out of air to her and she went for her Octo, she was amazed to find it was gone! The diver then gave up, filled his BC and kicked for the surface... So where did her Octo go? As it turned out she had accidentally trapped it between her back and her BC, so it was behind her under the BC.

I have had my octo pop out of the "octo holder" clipped to my shoulder D ring way too many times. The experience above is a good reason to donate the long hose primary in your mouth, and then use the second stage bungeed around your neck. Octo/power inflators... been there, done three different brands, no thanks. The DIR crowd have this one right (IMHO).

 

[Adobo]

I don't use that model "Air 2" but I have a Genesis Sidekick Octopus and it breaths the same way. I have played around with it while breathing from it and pushing BC inflator buttons and I can control my buoyancy while breathing fine and there are some important advantages. One it is more streamlined, but more important it is always where I expect it to be.

Isn't it true that when you are deflating your bc using your inflate/deflate mechanism, if you inhale at the same time, you wind up breathing some gas out of the BC? (That's what scubatoys larry told me at one time anyway)

This streamlining thing, I don't get. What is the advantage of one less hose again? Out of curiousity, do you use a jacket style BC or a back inflate BC? Also, what kind of primary light do you use and how do you stow it? Don't jacket style BCs and dangling flashlights produce more hydrodynamic issues than a 22" low pressure hose?

When you have a backup regulator on a bungy, it is always in the same spot. Always. It is right under your chin. I find with my inflator/deflator, It is usually laying right under my left boob (sorry ladies) but sometimes it isn't. I've had a couple of occassions where I had to search around for it to adjust my bouyancy. With my luck, if I had one of those air2 type mechanisms, I would wind up not finding it when I need it the most.

It should be noted that having a backup regulator (most people choose an octopus which is essentially the same thing) does not mean that you need secure it someplace that is difficult to get to. That is a choice that some divers make.

 

[StSomewhere]

I'm sure most everyone knows I'm no fan of inflator hose pull dumps or Air2-type devices. My configuration is identical to Adobo's. (Hmm, I wonder why. )

But regardless, whatever configuration you are using, PRACTICE with it, do regular drills to make sure its ingrained, and make absolutely certain to cover this in detail with any new dive buddy.

 

[Mandy3206]

That simply means it will fit on the different sized fittings for these intergrated secondaries. The LP hose for a regular inflator is far more restricted than the LP hose for a 2nd stage (or the LP hose for an integrated inflator/2nd stage). The issue is not if the dive alert will fit, it is if the dive aleart allows enough air to pass through it to keep up with the demand of a 2nd stage.

Surely to save on manufacturing costs, there is only 1 dive alert with different connectors for different inflators. I imagine the first dive alert only worked with std lp inflators then Air2's and stuff started coming out. Did they simply manufacture new connectors to fit the Air2's or did they completely redesign the whole system so that enough air could pass through to handle the higher demand.

I wouldn't want to bet my life on it unless I had personally tried it.

The Divealert and Subalert will let the air pass without any aparent reduced flow, maybe if you use a flowmeter to check actual flow, some loss may be measured.
I test mine regularly (as should be done with any octo) at any depth and have never had dificulty breathing through it, even at 120' with no problems at all.

The Divealert and Subalert are completely redesigned for diferent fittings, the bigger the fitting, the bigger the device.

They currently manufacture 3 models, 1 for standard inflator connection, 1 for the Zeagle Octo+ or similar fitting and 1 for the SP Air II or clones, I know 'cause I got 2 Std (daughter and girlfriend) and 2 Air II type (mine and brother), and the Air II type is a lot bigger than the Std version, they work the same but all the pieces are bigger.

I also got 2 lp hoses for the Air II type and one is a dedicated crimped fitting, and the other is a screw on fitting that can be used with any inflator provided that you screw in the correct fitting.

As said before, integrated octo/inflator is perfectly good for recreational diving, you just have to drill with it as with any other piece of equipment.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

I don't use that model "Air 2" but I have a Genesis Sidekick Octopus and it breaths the same way. I have played around with it while breathing from it and pushing BC inflator buttons and I can control my buoyancy while breathing fine and there are some important advantages. One it is more streamlined, but more important it is always where I expect it to be.

I only know one diver who needed the use of another diver Octopus ASAP/life and death and he almost died because of a mistake made with a regular octo. It was cold water wreck dive to 120 feet off the coast of BC. The wreck was a war ship specifically cleaned and modified with safety swim-out holes for SCUBA diving. He got separated from the group due to silt in the wreck interior. He ran low on air and could not find his buddy, so he got out of the wreck and went up to the main deck of the wreck where the less experienced divers were. He could only reach one diver, he signaled out of air to her and she went for her Octo, she was amazed to find it was gone! The diver then gave up, filled his BC and kicked for the surface. The group found him unconscious at the surface, not breathing and nearly dead. CPR brought him back and then helicopter rescue into the big city for a long hyperbaric chamber trip. So where did her Octo go? As it turned out she had accidentally trapped it between her back and her BC, so it was behind her under the BC. That just can’t happen on my rig.

The only exception is for instructors, they need to use the octo all the time.

BTW my brother is a PADI MSDT and he hates my Genesis Sidekick, he even tells his classes I am nuts. So it is a matter of opinion. Still the more I dive with it the more I like the Sidekick – I would not dive with a traditional octo again.

To me this is not an argument for an Air II or similar tech, this just shows there is no such thing as a safe overhead, even with holes you have silt, what if there would have been a first stage failure while looking for the lost buddy due to silt? Also this is an issue of gas management, the person was not trap lost? yet they ran out of air, I'm not making an attach here, I'm just saying this is rather null, or if anything just re enforces problems with "OW Wreck penetrations", I'm not saying the diver was stupid either, again I'm just saying using this as an argument for an air II type device is like arguing "I'll tie my kid to the chair and lock him in the closet so he wont' hurt himself" proper training, gear, and gas management would have properly prevented this problem, not an air II.

edit - I didn't mean the first stage failing because of silt, I mean the lost buddy due to silt

 

[loosebits]

The only exception is for instructors, they need to use the octo all the time.

BTW my brother is a PADI MSDT and he hates my Genesis Sidekick, he even tells his classes I am nuts. So it is a matter of opinion. Still the more I dive with it the more I like the Sidekick – I would not dive with a traditional octo again.

I don't know how you would conclude that based on people thinking you're nuts that it must be a matter of opinion. It seems like people with lots of expeirence think you're nuts. Perhaps its time to re-evaluate your decision and think about why all these experienced divers think you're nuts.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

Just for the record, I think he's nuts

Seriously tho, its a fix for a problem that does not exist, OH this gives me a great idea I have to update my signature!