Roll Call- COZUMEL December 2018

[Christi]

From what I understand, Mexican businesses aren't required to carry liability insurance and, as a result, pretty much none do. Different culture... Mexican Judges detest individuals and businesses suing each other and expect the parties to settle matters equitably among themselves. Unless it is a criminal offence, judges don't want their courts tied up with such suits.

Are you kidding? Nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, the liability requirements were just raised last year and all of our policy premiums went up over 400% - literally, not an estimation. Furthermore, in order to have marine park permits, turismo nautico (permit from Harbor Master to operate commercially), and to pass inspection, insurance has to be current with new policy requirements. Several who don't have marine park permits cannot obtain them because they don't carry the proper insurance, but if a boat has permits, you can guarantee that they have proper insurance. In order to be a member of ANOAAT, all papers must be in order and current.

@CajunDiva - No, not a member of ANOAAT. My real concern with the new op that posted is his offer to take divers who are complete strangers to him to a "deep dive."

 

[Christi]

So...is Coral Reef Dive Center legal or not? I could not find the name of their boat on their website, is it the Coral Diver?

No, I believe the Coral Diver (boat) belongs to Scuba Club (?)

 

[CajunDiva]

@CajunDiva - No, not a member of ANOAAT. My real concern with the new op that posted is his offer to take divers who are complete strangers to him to a "deep dive."

This is what alerted me IMMEDIATELY. And if they're a legit dive op...no problem. It's just important that divers realize what is going on and that there have been some serious issues with boats operating in the marine park who are not licensed to do so.

 

[CajunDiva]

No, I believe the Coral Diver (boat) belongs to Scuba Club (?)

It's permitted for 18 people, so would have to be a larger boat. That would fit into the Scuba Club mode...

 

[deepsea21]

Are you kidding? Nothing could be further from the truth.

This is news to me Christi... So all dive ops have to carry liability insurance? What does this liability insurance cover? Is it liability that covers damage to another's property such as another's boat or dock or is it comprehensive liability that covers claims the family of a deceased diver may try to file against a dive op under a claim of negligence on the behalf of the dive op? From what I know about Mexico, the instant one signs the release that all dive ops require one sign before diving they truly signed away all of their rights to pursue the dive op under any claims in Mexico. Unlike the states where signing a general release to dive with an op is meaningless, in Mexico it is my understanding that trying to file suit after the diver signed that release is absolutely futile and will be regarded as a waste of the Judge's and his court's time... "He/she signed the release, knew the risks diving presents, my sympathy to the family, case dismissed".

 

[Christi]

This is news to me Christi... So all dive ops have to carry liability insurance? What does this liability insurance cover? Is it liability that covers damage to another's property such as another's boat or dock or is it comprehensive liability that covers claims the family of a deceased diver may try to file against a dive op under a claim of negligence on the behalf of the dive op? From what I know about Mexico, the instant one signs the release that all dive ops require one sign before diving they truly signed away all of their rights to pursue the dive op under any claims in Mexico. Unlike the states where signing a general release to dive with an op is meaningless, in Mexico it is my understanding that trying to file suit after the diver signed that release is absolutely futile and will be regarded as a waste of the Judge's and his court's time... "He/she signed the release, knew the risks diving presents, my sympathy to the family, case dismissed".

Coverage includes property, passengers and crew.

True, Mexico is not nearly as letigious as the US and personal responsibility comes into play. But in a case of gross negligence of course there is recourse.

 

[GlockPerfection]

Getting back to the business of doing the roll call.

Bryan G (GlockPerfection) -- Dec 25 - Jan1 -- Hotel Cozumel and Resort -- Dive Paradise

I will be traveling solo so if anyone is on a similar trip plan, let me know if you want to buddy up or just get a drink or two... or three.

 

[mstevens]

An update with me and GlockPerfection added (reordered by arrival date then departure date):

Jay and Cheryl. Nov 7 - Dec 12 - Villa Las Anclas - Tres Pelicanos
DiverN2H2O will arrive with DW 12/2 depart 3/15 staying at Villas Faro diving will be with mixed operators.
Deepsea21+1 / Casa Mexicana / Tres Pelicanos / Dec 8 - 24
Alan P +1 staying at Hotel Cozumel December 20th-27 and diving with Tres Pelicanos
Trailboss123 +2 @ Suites Colonial and Blue XT Sea Dec 21-30
mstevens December 21 2018 to January 05 2019 at Casa Suzana diving with Deep Blue
Shadling + wife & son/Sabor/Aldora/Dec 22-Jan 6
Mikeycanuk, wife and teenage son -Residencias Reef/Aldora/Dec24-Jan4
Bryan G (GlockPerfection) -- Dec 25 - Jan1 -- Hotel Cozumel and Resort -- Dive Paradise

 

[Trailboss123]

Updated again to add mgreider

Jay and Cheryl. Nov 7 - Dec 12 - Villa Las Anclas - Tres Pelicanos
DiverN2H2O will arrive with DW 12/2 depart 3/15 staying at Villas Faro diving will be with mixed operators.
Deepsea21+1 / Casa Mexicana / Tres Pelicanos / Dec 8 - 24
Alan P +1 staying at Hotel Cozumel December 20th-27 and diving with Tres Pelicanos
Trailboss123 +2 @ Suites Colonial and Blue XT Sea Dec 21-30
mstevens December 21 2018 to January 05 2019 at Casa Suzana diving with Deep Blue
Shadling + wife & son/Sabor/Aldora/Dec 22-Jan 6
Mikeycanuk, wife and teenage son -Residencias Reef/Aldora/Dec24-Jan4
Bryan G (GlockPerfection) -- Dec 25 - Jan1 -- Hotel Cozumel and Resort -- Dive Paradise
mgreider + wife Dec 24-Jan2, Residencias Reef, Liquid Blue

 

[mstevens]

Mexico's legal system is older than the US's. It's based on the Napoleonic code rather than common law. Mexicans arguably have more and better-protected rights than Americans, but both their civil and their criminal legal systems are significantly different from the US's. Trials in Mexico are often very different from what an American might expect - Cozumel is just now completing construction of a courthouse where for the first time there will be trial based on US-style oral arguments and testimony rather than a primarily document-based process. The bureaucracy and paperwork involved in everyday matters can be staggering. I've been dealing a lot with Cozumel police and prosecutors lately - the process is almost unrecognizable from what would happen in the US. There is, though, a clear formal process.

deepsea21, Americans often sign release forms cavalierly thinking they don't matter. I think it's reasonable to hold people accountable for what they sign - if someone misrepresents their training, experience, medical history, or current medication use, a system like Mexico's is going to see that as very significant in reducing a diver operator's liability. It's also the case that US courts don't have jurisdiction in Mexico. Americans sometimes take that to mean there there's no venue, but that's not the case. I'm not actually aware of any recent liability suits involving diving in Cozumel (though it's not as if I have any particular way of being aware of any), nor am I aware of any such suits in the past in which a release form played a role in the outcome. I am aware of of a case many years ago involving a diver's being killed by a speedboat where the outcome was widely viewed as having been skewed by the family fortune of the boat's owner and fraudulent misattribution of the tragedy to a crew member who probably wasn't actually at fault and who had no assets for the survivors to recover. Many see that as a miscarriage of justice, but that was nothing to do with Cozumel dive ops or release forms.