Rodale's pushing deep air.

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Michael Schlink:
I'm not familiar enough to defend but, I'm pretty sure Ange knows what he is doing so perhaps his article got butchered by the mag. editorial staff (long shot I know).

Trust me -- as a 21-year veteran of the journalism industry (up until 3 years ago), it's not as long a shot as you might think. I wish I had a dollar for every one of the articles I wrote that I didn't recognize in print because some editor butchered it beyond belief. I wouldn't need to win the lottery then...

I would be curious to know if Michael Ange feels the article appears exactly as he wrote it.
 
IndigoBlue:
I am sure PADI-DSAT disagrees with you, I am sure TDI disagrees with you, and I am sure IANTD also disagrees with you. So you are somewhat outnumbered, sort of like Custer at the Little Big Horn. Of course, all your DIR friends are more than likely to come to your rescue, but just like those brave men of the 7th Cavalry, they are also outnumbered.

I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with you. Its just that there is no basis in logic for your statement other than a personal opinion.

My own personal view is that NACD has it right, in that no NDL dive should be deeper than 100 ft. That is their cavern standard for NDL. I believe that it should apply to all NDL diving, not just caverns. But then, that is simply my own personal view.

There is alot of data and facts out there stating that Deep Air is bad and there is a safer way of doing it.

If DIR diving is so outnumbered then why are some TDI/IANTD/NAUI instructors modifing thier courses to the point the're publicly stating they are teaching DIR LIKE courses, seems to me they shouldn't have to if it was safe to Solo dive and do Deep Air.
 
IndigoBlue:
We will need to see the original article so that we can see what it was that set Mike off about it. TDI and IANTD use deep air for training purposes towards their trimix certs.

Deep-air is not a requirement for the IANTD trimix cert. You can be IANTD trimix certified without ever going deeper than 130 on air. In fact with the introduction of the rec trimix courses you probably can do it without going that deep on air. Hell since IANTD permits OW and nitrox to be learned at the same time I guess you could do it without ever diving air at all.

However, I didn't make any kind of deep-air argument with the article. I quoted the exact sections that I commented on. I disagreen with the authours explaination of the rule of thirds, what he said about gas switches and what constitutes the need to use multiple gasses.

I made no argument over END at all.

PADI-DSAT preaches deep are with EANx deco. Those are currently the uses for it, that I know of.

There is at least one agency (PSA) who teaches air to 240 ft.

Mike will probably squirm like a worm to get this thread down some irrelevant tangent, and set up all sorts of straw men to knock down himself. But without the original Rodales article, we won't make much salient progress in any direction.

Not likely. The points that I argued were quoted from the article exactly. The arguements I made were basic and easy to follow. No straw.
 
Personally I read the Rodales article as well and I did not feel it was not "pushing" deep air but rather just addressing the question of whether it could be done safely.

Frankly I found the article to be a refreshing change of pace from the anti everything that ain't politically correct trend that seems so popular lately.

The article pointed out that people have and continue to make deep air dives safely and that it does offer the advantage of simplicity. It also makes the point that saftey is a relative thing. To be honest if we were all obsessed with saftey, none of us would ever go in the water. Diving is an adjustable risk sport and what is risky to one diver may not be regarded as risky to another.

The article did mention the elimination of the risk of switching to the wrong gas at depth, but I do have an issue with that. If you are doing deep anything without an accellerated deco gas, you will be doing a lot of deco, so I don't think deep air would totally eliminate the risk in the real world as most divers would take a deco gas along anyway.

You do need to be fair and state that the article does point out the limitations of deep air and suggests deep air in cold dark conditions or where a long swim along the bottom is required may not be a great idea. They also point out that results will vary from diver to diver and day to day.

The article essentially concludes that deep air is safe under the right conditions and I think that is a reasonable conclusion.

A larger issue of contention I suspect is the underlying assumption of the philopsophy of leaving the esponsibility for deciding what is safe and whether the conditions are right with the individual diver. I have always been a big proponent of individual responsibility. I much prefer it to the dogma of some of the current tech training agencies that promote doing things in the one true approved fashion and consequently eliminating freewill, at least if you want to be a member of the "club".

There are some people who like this sense of belonging, who like the idea of having a creed to follow and who view dving as the ultimate team sport. But the there are others who view diving as an expression of individuality and view diving as the ultimate in individual sports and as an opportunity to express their individualism and self reliance and to put it into practice.

It's a big ocean and I think there is more than enough room for both points of view. In my opinion a little maturity and a little tolerance would be a welcome addition to this thread.

Tom R:
Any discussion on deep air is bad, Just don't do it. Just like the solo diving, it's stupid and who certifys them anyway. Maybe we should start teaching team/buddy awareness.

This is a pretty predictable thread and it was inevitable that some one would make a statement like this. I guess I would have been surprised and maybe even dissapiointed if someone did not. Your statement sums up the anti whatever argument nicely but also serves as a good example of where a little tolerance for other points of views would be appreciated.

Personally I do both deep air and solo diving and have done so for almost 20 years so naturally I disagree with you that either is "bad" or "stupid" and resent the implication you make about divers who engage in either.

What maybe bothers me the most about your post is the idea that if you feel something is "bad" it should not be discussed. I assume the idea is that if we talk about something that is "bad", people will run out and try it in a teeming mass.

I prefer to think that if we openly discuss anything enough, people will be able to make their own decision based on informed consent and will pursue those things that makes sense to them and avoid those things they don't. It's an idea that is closely related to that thing that lots of people talk about but that very few seem to really understand lately called "freedom".
 
DA Aquamaster - great reply.
 
DA Aquamaster:
What maybe bothers me the most about your post is the idea that if you feel something is "bad" it should not be discussed. I assume the idea is that if we talk about something that is "bad", people will run out and try it in a teeming mass.

I prefer to think that if we openly discuss anything enough, people will be able to make their own decision based on informed consent and will pursue those things that makes sense to them and avoid those things they don't. It's an idea that is closely related to that thing that lots of people talk about but that very few seem to really understand lately called "freedom".

So here we are discussing in area called " Basic Scuba Discussions" to a bunch of basic divers about the pros and cons of diving deep air.

Just think 20 years ago it was OK to smoke a little pot, have a few drinks and drive home, hey everyone did it so what. How many people do that now? Just like deep air and solo diving our attitudes have to change.
 
DA Aquamaster:
A larger issue of contention I suspect is the underlying assumption of the philopsophy of leaving the esponsibility for deciding what is safe and whether the conditions are right with the individual diver. I have always been a big proponent of individual responsibility. I much prefer it to the dogma of some of the current tech training agencies that promote doing things in the one true approved fashion and consequently eliminating freewill, at least if you want to be a member of the "club".


Personally...I'm a huge proponent for personal responsibility as well. I couldn't care less what YOU or anyone else does with their diving.

What I find interesting is that Mike isn't DIR. Mike isn't trying to be a member of a "club" at all. Nor are many who have commented on the problems associated with deep air diving.

Heck, just read the last few chapters of "the Last Dive"...is Bernie DIR? Nope.

Time and time again deep air has been shown to be a poor choice and adaptation to narcosis has been shown to be impossible in lab tests. We are not talking about if you chose to look at the evidence and decide that it's cool for you. I couldn't care less if you decide to go to 260 on air by yourself every day of the week.

My issue is that many OW divers do not have the discernment or the full picture of what's going on to be able to read an article like this and recognize that it is likely not a good choice for them to make. On the other hand, many will read it as a justification for diving deep air...just because it was reported to be safe in Rodales and by a respected tech diver.

This is where I have an issue.
 
Oh...I also wanted to add...

I think it is a perfect example of "political correctness" to dismiss a very real concern with a response of "labeling" the debate opponent or associating them with one group or "club".

It is a totally PC tactic to refuse to engage in real debate on an issue by putting your opponent in a box which everyone already made-up their minds about one way or the other. Then you pull the "freedom" card.

This happens everyday in the popular media.
 
Tom R:
<snip>
Just think 20 years ago it was OK to smoke a little pot, have a few drinks and drive home, hey everyone did it so what.
<snip>
.

Well, no it wasn't.

You could continue to discuss deep air here if i promised to cover my eyes and not look. And I promise not to wander over to any "tech" board and sully my "basic" scuba diver eyes. Guess I'll have to rely on Rodales if no one wants to discuss the subject elsewhere in front of me :crafty:

This board exists to discuss things doesn't it??
 
MikeFerrara:
For starters start reading here

It looks like they combined several of the articles from the hard copy onto their web site.

Read all 6 pages and see if you find any names that might be found elsewhere in their endorsements, sponsorships ect...

I didn't read that close but I thought I saw something interesting.

The second link you provided was the article I recall, coupled with a one of the small articles in the first link which was the Mike Ball ad. I don't have any issues prior to 2002 lying around, so maybe the articles in the first link predate that?

There were some interesting names in those articles, including Michael Ange and Paul Humann. I wish they had quoted some better qualified divers. :rolleyes: :D

Marc
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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